Tank won't cycle

[EpicWin]

Hey guys I need some help from those who have used muriatic acid (MA) to cure rock. A few moths ago, I cured all of my rock in MA in preparation for moving and resetting up my systems. I bought a huge rubber maid and did diluted the MA as instructed. I left the rock in the MA solution for about 10 days.

A week and a half ago I started cycling a new tank using new sand from Dr fosters and Smith and the cured rock. I put a few of the cured rocks in as well. Finally I put some raw fish in to start the cycle. WELL here we are at least 10 days later and the tank is devoid of hint of cycling. Anyone have any ideas? I did not seed the tank with any live rock etc and I would like not to. I have done this a few times before and never had a problem with the cycle starting. Im at a loss

 

[brandon429]

what are the test kits you are using for the big 3 in cycling, API or others?

 

[EpicWin]

I actually have never tested when cycling. I do have salifert kits but cycling isn't nearly as exact a science as keeping a reef. I always thought u just needed to add some nitrates (the raw fish) and bam, u were off and running. am I wring?

 

[brandon429]

no id agree with that

me too, ive never owned a test kit but ive learned to suspect api as a fault starting point lol just off posts, I know not everybody agrees but its my take to start there. there is variability in using shrimp, fish, meat as the breakdown source and imo raw cleaning ammonia would accomplish your goal faster.

how are you basing your cycling progression, by smell Im guessing> when you mentioned cured rocks, does that mean you had your rocks you started over with, then added some that had coralline and typicals on it as a cross seed? without live rock that is cured meaning with living animals, so far Im not seeing much of a pathway for nitrifiers to get in using the amounts we want to get a reasonably quick recycle. In Randy's forum we were discussing bacteria in the aquarium and Id mentioned how nitrifiers get in from multiple sources always, constantly, but in your case it might be quicker to get them in greater amnts vs natural contaminations.

was that sand wet packed? also can we see a full tank shot

 

[EpicWin]

Actually I wanted to start absolutely fresh. SO the sand came dry and the rock was totally dry and clean from the MA. SO really I am starting from absolutely nothing, no bacteria or algae and that was what I was intending. However, I'm not sure I've ever started this way.

 

[Reefing Madness]

Muriatic Acid does not cure live rock, it kills everything on it, therefore it can not be used to start a tank up once thrown in, everything is dead on it.
You need to get a grocery store bought jumbo shrimp and throw it in a lil net, or put in a mesh bag, and lay it in the tank, thats your ammonia source. When the Ammonia and Nitrites are gone, replace 1/2 your water and your good to go at that point.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/PIC/article.cfm?aid=209

 

[lyscer]

I did you like you did and ran all of my rock through MA as well. Took me about 3 weeks to get a good cycle going. Here is the thread where I kept track of things if you are interested.

http://reef2reef.com/threads/reviving-dry-dead-live-rock-api-quick-start.196803/#post-2276417

 

[brandon429]

your specific tank is an ideal candidate for bottle bac usage and raw cleaning ammonia, you can get the bacteria needed to run a fish tank in two weeks, todays science of speed cycling is really accurate and large formal articles exist on it and bottle bac, independent tested stuff not sales writeups. a darn good one was on advancedaquarist at work ill search in a sec.

so yes you can proceed as is, but it takes longer with this hands off way. you've already imported some nitrifiers through basic cross contamination, and you have provided an ammonia source...and cycling times are highly predictable and reliable here's my offer:

current mode is roughly 40-60 days, a small delay created by no quick input of nitrifiers, but strong ammonia input by any source. adding bottle bac to curr process speeds it up weeks.

fastest possible mode is a salifert ammonia and nitrate kit, the correct cleaning ammonia, dr tims bottle bac, cycle until able to digest 2-5 ppm in 24 hrs to zero, 2-3 weeks.

use live rock thats been carefully vetted against hitchhikers and speed this whole thing up. you are going to be adding frags that come from nonsterile systems, fish slime coats vector in pests and dinos et al, so other than mantis shrimp our tanks due to import tend to turn right back into purple cured live rocks as we sometimes avoid.

I dont fault anyone however for starting fresh to control certain invaders, thats a great commitment. You must quarantine all frags going forward not in this tank to uphold that standard of exclusion, then its a fine one IMO.
B

 

[brandon429]

its neat we have a few diff ways to cycle a tank based on time frames desired, cost, etc. I can't think of any biological aspect of our hobby that follows such predictable timeframes as tank cycling, IF accurate ammonia testers are used.

use a tester thats known for reading .25 all the time, and prepare for a goosechase that never ends lol. a good way to answer the thread is tank is indeed cycling, using the slowest of 3 options, we need weeks more time. It will be just as good, when done, as any method possible. Excellent thread topic imo.



Cycling threads are fantastic biology threads as a cycle can not ever stall unless an antibacterial action or additive has been taken. any tanks particular cycling phases are merely in a transition state where we set the exact timing we demand. Stalled cycling threads are so fun to delve into, and barring additives like medicines we can uncover them as actively taking on bacteria, albeit slowly, even if we havent added any on purpose.
I forgot the grand illustration for the thread, the 1/2 step first option before the one youve chosen

the true hands off add nothing, add no ammonia, and still get a cycle done in 6 months option. This is the most hotly debated aspect of tank cycling, it goes with the grain to claim that we must add ammonia or NONE can get in (tell this to gnats, your skin cells made of protein wafting into the tank, many more)


here are ways nitrifiers get in your aquarium, just a few ways:
-when you buy premade water from the lfs, sitting in a totally clean vat, there's nitrifiers living in that water (contrary to popular opinion these bacteria are exclusively benthic)
-from your hands as you've touched other wet marine surfaces
-from outside surfaces and slicks and scums on your hands that eventually touch the tank
-insects landing in your tank, gnats, will transmit them and many other bacteria which are the starting foodstuffs as they die off

**both nitrifiers, and ammonia trace to feed them, get in even if we dont add** but the process is so very slow compared to tossing in a shrimp (shrimp brings in nitrifiers as contaminants too, its from a marine environment depending on prep, freezing isnt always lethal to them housed in scum films)



you can absolutely turn a pile of red bricks into nitrifying covered red bricks if you simply add water to an aquarium, dont cover it, and wait six months. fascinating, law breaking biology. Sure it wont run a 9 tang bioload but ill run some damsels lol.

Im running a cup-on-the-windowsill experiment right now. mixed up .023 reef crystals in a cup on bright southern windowsill since may 24th

there's scummy stuff i didnt put in there, and most certainly, without a doubt, there are nitrifiers and slimes and fungi and precipitates all living in self seeding harmony i can directly see their scummy little aggregations lol. ill do pics when at home

 

[Squid]

I actually have never tested when cycling. I do have salifert kits but cycling isn't nearly as exact a science as keeping a reef. I always thought u just needed to add some nitrates (the raw fish) and bam, u were off and running. am I wring?

It is not nitrates you need to add to start a cycle, it is ammonia. Get a test kit and test for ammonia and nitrite then nitrate. You want each of those parameters to increase progressively and then zero out . Once those are 0 and nitrates increase, you are cycled. Ammonia is the starting block to a cycle, without it there will be no nitrifying bacteria.

 

[EpicWin]

great advice from all thanks!

 

[EpicWin]

Ok so this is getting pretty interesting. I got Microbacter and Ammonia and put it all in the tank of Friday. As of today still nothing. WE er going on 3 weeks now and the tank is not showing what I'm used to for a cycle. The sand bed is absolutely barren, no red slime etc, and the water has a slight yellow tint and smells bad but not terrible..

 

[brandon429]

that indicates need for a full or large water change, the water does not have to rot. you dont start anything over, or stall a cycle with a water change especially when the next action is to get right back on it.

Its very exacting, to force cycle a tank if its done in steps, step one is post a reading showing 3 ppm ammonia, so we know thats at the right level. after the large water change. there is no need to fill the tank with competing bacterial mats associated with rot, we are looking for a cleaner community and the rotting water might have too much ammonia. post a reading where after the change of water you have the tank set at 3 ppm, as well as a picture of the ammonia used so we can make sure its surfactant free type. i know cycling is challening but its really easy

you simply bring the clean water tank to 3 ppm and see how long it takes to go down to zero. that time frame will shorten to 24 hours at a minimum time of 3 weeks using dr tims per directions. microbacter should be the same, since these haven't been used for three weeks i see nothing out of place so far.

 

[brandon429]

can you post full tank shot

 

[EpicWin]

So this is getting pretty weird... Its now been 2 months and I don't think the tank has cycled. The good is that there is algae growing as I can see the green on the glass... The bad is that Ammonia reads about .5 PPM and dosent change daily. I used good old ammonia from walmart to get it there but now haven't dosed it in weeks..

What I am wondering is 1) should I just start over? 2) could the culprit be the rock that I cleaned using muriatic acid? ( I wouldn't think so because HCL breaks down quickly in water or air. And 3) what should I do different if I do restart?

 

[Mike in CT]

Are you sure the test is giving accurate results? Maybe have a trusted LFS or fellow reefer to check it. Have you tested for nitrates or nitrites as well? If you get readings on them then you have something going on.

 

[ReeferJohn408]

Get an Ammonia source and jump start everything up. If you wish for things to get going a bit faster, add Microbacter7 or any Nitrifying bacteria to get your biological system on the go.

AVOID WATER CHANGES AND THEN WAIT. Don't do anything, just leave it be. Test kits are useless on the early stage of reef cycling. Just relax and wait. ( The hardest part of reefing keeping ) Let the Nitrogen cycle take its own course properly THIS TIME.

- After the Vortex of death has gone down and water clearing up within 2-3 weeks, green algae will start showing up. That will be the time you gather some clean up crew and START USING TEST KITS. You may also want to calibrate your Calcium / Alk to much develop your system's stability.

 

[EpicWin]

Ok. So I got a nitrate test kit and it reads between 5 and 10 ppm. Ammonia between .5 and 1.

 

[brandon429]

post tank pics


what brand is your ammonia kit


Why no tank pics these weeks (pics show unspoken details, alternate growths that lend support to cycle stage etc)

Nitrate reading implies filter bacteria in place

Whats nitrite reading

Ammonia levels could be:
Wrong depending on test brand used
Result of simply having excess added, where a normal bioload won't cause a free reading

Pics