Tassled Filefish Having Trouble Swimming

hunterallen40 · Feb 3, 2023

I'm really at a loss with this one... My tassled filefish has been with me for almost two years, and I have never seen him behaving like this. My parameters are in check with where they usually are:

salinity: 34.2
pH: 8.0 - 8.3 (currently 8.25)
Temp: 76.8
Alk: 7.69
Ca: 428
Mg: 1324
NO3: (I'll update after I test these, but probably 2.5)
PO4: (I'll update after I test these, but probably 0.1)

He didn't eat last night, and he didn't eat this morning (which is SUPER strange for him... He's not a small fish).

Here's a video of him this morning when I fed the tank:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/29NopYzLyZqQoZFU6

After I saw him swimming like that, I started to grow very concerned. I don't see anything physically wrong with him, so I suppose it could be something internal (or perhaps a spinal injury?).

I pulled him out of the display (poor guy didn't even try to swim away from the net

), and I gave him a 90 minute bath in Ruby Reef Rally Pro (1 tsp per gallon, aerated). After the bath, I put him in the sump (just so he doesn't get blasted by the powerheads / picked on). This is a video of him in the sump:

New video · Friday, Feb 3, 2023 🎬

Tap to view!

photos.app.goo.gl

Does anyone have any idea what might cause him to behave like this? From Humble.fish's website, it seems like this could be a spinal injury? It absolutely devastates me to see him struggling like this. Any help is greatly appreciated.

vetteguy53081 · Feb 3, 2023

hunterallen40 said:
I'm really at a loss with this one... My tassled filefish has been with me for almost two years, and I have never seen him behaving like this. My parameters are in check with where they usually are:

salinity: 34.2
pH: 8.0 - 8.3 (currently 8.25)
Temp: 76.8
Alk: 7.69
Ca: 428
Mg: 1324
NO3: (I'll update after I test these, but probably 2.5)
PO4: (I'll update after I test these, but probably 0.1)

He didn't eat last night, and he didn't eat this morning (which is SUPER strange for him... He's not a small fish).

Here's a video of him this morning when I fed the tank:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/29NopYzLyZqQoZFU6

After I saw him swimming like that, I started to grow very concerned. I don't see anything physically wrong with him, so I suppose it could be something internal (or perhaps a spinal injury?).

I pulled him out of the display (poor guy didn't even try to swim away from the net ), and I gave him a 90 minute bath in Ruby Reef Rally Pro (1 tsp per gallon, aerated). After the bath, I put him in the sump (just so he doesn't get blasted by the powerheads / picked on). This is a video of him in the sump:

New video · Friday, Feb 3, 2023 🎬

Tap to view!

photos.app.goo.gl

Does anyone have any idea what might cause him to behave like this? From Humble.fish's website, it seems like this could be a spinal injury? It absolutely devastates me to see him struggling like this. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks for a lengthy video- It does help. Overall the fish does not look bad. I do realize it has a natural pigment behind the gill area but his seems darker than usual bringing the question. . . Pigment or is it something internal?
May be a silly question, has the fish eaten recently ?
I ask as usually when a fish swimming sideways or upside down generally suggests a swim bladder issue where the little sac contained within accumulates gases which controls the fish’s buoyancy abilities. Can also be other internal issue.

hunterallen40 · Feb 3, 2023

vetteguy53081 said:
I do realize it has a natural pigment behind the gill area but his seems darker than usual bringing the question. . . Pigment or is it something internal?

He is definitely darker than usual. He's got a dark brown color going that he usually shows when he gets stressed. It could very well be something internal.

vetteguy53081 said:
May be a silly question, has the fish eaten recently ?

He definitely ate day before yesterday. I didn't watch him yesterday morning, so I'm not sure if he ate then... But he usually eats quite a lot (and I usually hear him "kissing" things around the tank throughout the day -- have not heard this in a couple days).

If it is a swim bladder issue, I should do an epsom salt bath, right? Humble fish's website (from the link before) "says Dose magnesium sulfate (Epsom Salt) at 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons," but it doesn't give a time frame for this... Do I need to isolate him? I have a 20 gallon I could put him in.

vetteguy53081 · Feb 3, 2023

hunterallen40 said:
He is definitely darker than usual. He's got a dark brown color going that he usually shows when he gets stressed. It could very well be something internal.

He definitely ate day before yesterday. I didn't watch him yesterday morning, so I'm not sure if he ate then... But he usually eats quite a lot (and I usually hear him "kissing" things around the tank throughout the day -- have not heard this in a couple days).

If it is a swim bladder issue, I should do an epsom salt bath, right? Humble fish's website (from the link before) "says Dose magnesium sulfate (Epsom Salt) at 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons," but it doesn't give a time frame for this... Do I need to isolate him? I have a 20 gallon I could put him in.

In honesty and not haste, I am often troubled by research on Humblefish site In which I have great respect for him, then question addressed here placing one in the middle. To clarify, several months ago there was a bacterial issue brought up and it was recommended to treat 5 days but the person said she saw Humble fish article (which from 2015) say different and a different treatment. The fish lost the eye and a finger was pointed in both directions.
As I told her, either work with R2R or Humblefish but there will be conflicting recommendations.
However, im not running away on this. Dosing magnesium sulfate which yes is epsom salt does no good or offer advantage as fish is already in salt/salt environment.
I asked of eating as fish will often release those gases over time IF its a bladder issue or other internal can be treated in QT tank with Seachem Metroplex added to food at a very tiny amount as its 5gm weight which is almost nothing.

hunterallen40 · Feb 3, 2023

vetteguy53081 said:
In honesty and not haste, I am often troubled by research on Humblefish site In which I have great respect for him, then question addressed here placing one in the middle.

Understood. I suppose I meant to say "should I do this treatment in this case." I'll try to refrain from cross-referencing in the future.

vetteguy53081 said:
However, im not running away on this. Dosing magnesium sulfate which yes is epsom salt does no good or offer advantage as fish is already in salt/salt environment.

This is honestly why I asked... Aren't our magnesium supplements mostly magnesium sulfate anyway? I had a lot of trouble seeing how that could be very helpful here.

vetteguy53081 said:
I asked of eating as fish will often release those gases over time IF its a bladder issue or other internal can be treated in QT tank with Seachem Metroplex added to food at a very tiny amount as its 5gm weight which is almost nothing.

Okay, I think that's a good idea. I'll isolate him in a QT. Hopefully he eats tonight with some medicated food. If not, do you think it would be worth dosing the entire QT with metro (at the usual 1 "scoop" per 10 gallons)?

vetteguy53081 · Feb 3, 2023

hunterallen40 said:
Understood. I suppose I meant to say "should I do this treatment in this case." I'll try to refrain from cross-referencing in the future.

This is honestly why I asked... Aren't our magnesium supplements mostly magnesium sulfate anyway? I had a lot of trouble seeing how that could be very helpful here.

Okay, I think that's a good idea. I'll isolate him in a QT. Hopefully he eats tonight with some medicated food. If not, do you think it would be worth dosing the entire QT with metro (at the usual 1 "scoop" per 10 gallons)?

I dont believe entire tank is necessary. Most mag supplements are Magnesium Chloride which is safer but the sulfate can be added for magnesium but the sulfate is very effective in Freshwater treatments and with ponds

Jay Hemdal · Feb 3, 2023

Just jumping in with some observations - while I don't know what is going on with the filefish, I also see the dark coloration. Its caudal fin is a bit frayed and it looks thinner than it ought to be. I've always had issues keeping this species long term - I haven't worked with a huge number, but they just don't live as long as I think they should.
Then - @vetteguy53081 is correct, adding Epsom salts to the water is pointless - that is a remedy used to treat freshwater fish, but Magnesium sulfate is the fourth highest salt in marine mixes, so adding a little bit more to a marine tank has no benefit.,

Jay

hunterallen40 · Feb 3, 2023

He's in the QT now with fresh saltwater (as of three hours ago). I put a sponge filter in instead of a powerhead to keep the water calm. He's struggling quite a bit, and still refusing food. He keeps trying to swim, but is not able to stabilize.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/8h9Csrvz1zHk89m76

@Jay Hemdal I'm curious what your experience is with this species. Did you see them die with similar symptoms to these?

Jay Hemdal · Feb 3, 2023

hunterallen40 said:
He's in the QT now with fresh saltwater (as of three hours ago). I put a sponge filter in instead of a powerhead to keep the water calm. He's struggling quite a bit, and still refusing food. He keeps trying to swim, but is not able to stabilize.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/8h9Csrvz1zHk89m76

@Jay Hemdal I'm curious what your experience is with this species. Did you see them die with similar symptoms to these?

Not exactly the same, but going through quarantine and doing well for some time, but then dying for no obvious reason.
Jay

hunterallen40 · Feb 5, 2023

Well, I'm sorry to say he didn't make it. I did a 100% water change on his QT yesterday morning while giving him a cipro bath (airstone + heater, 250 mg / gallon for 90 minutes). He looked like he was doing a little better after that bath, but after a few hours began to go back down hill again.

At this point, I just want to make sure the rest of my fish are okay / I don't have some pathogen floating around in there. I put a UV sterilizer on the display last night (just circulating with the pump I used for my 75 gallon). It's at algae / bacteria speeds for now, but I'll be reducing it down to the 79 gph recommended for protozoans (it's a 25 watt pentair).

So far the rest of the fish are looking fine + eating well.

What signs should I be looking for? Is there a way I could have caught this earlier?

vetteguy53081 · Feb 5, 2023

hunterallen40 said:
Well, I'm sorry to say he didn't make it. I did a 100% water change on his QT yesterday morning while giving him a cipro bath (airstone + heater, 250 mg / gallon for 90 minutes). He looked like he was doing a little better after that bath, but after a few hours began to go back down hill again.

At this point, I just want to make sure the rest of my fish are okay / I don't have some pathogen floating around in there. I put a UV sterilizer on the display last night (just circulating with the pump I used for my 75 gallon). It's at algae / bacteria speeds for now, but I'll be reducing it down to the 79 gph recommended for protozoans (it's a 25 watt pentair).

So far the rest of the fish are looking fine + eating well.

What signs should I be looking for? Is there a way I could have caught this earlier?

Sorry to hear. The fish was already weakened and it was 50/50 as to which way it would go. I hate to say but Cipro is best left to humans and not fish and has proven to be fatal for many fish. The slight improvement you saw was likely from fresh tank water and Not cipro.
You are looking for unusual or lethargic behavior (similar to file) , heavy breathing, loss of appetite, hiding, yawning and gasping at water surface as examples.

This post below sums it all and working in medical myself, I wholeheartedly agree:

Please STOP CIPROFLOXACIN DIPS and other antibiotics

It is surprisingly frequent the use of antibiotics on DIPs these days. Some users know me as a reefer only, but I am also a doctor. I will not enter the discussion on holobiont and why bacteria are important for the corals… But I would like to create a HUGE ALERT about dipping corals on...

www.reef2reef.com

hunterallen40 · Feb 5, 2023

vetteguy53081 said:
Sorry to hear. The fish was already weakened and it was 50/50 as to which way it would go. I hate to say but Cipro is best left to humans and not fish and has proven to be fatal for many fish. The slight improvement you saw was likely from fresh tank water and Not cipro.
You are looking for unusual or lethargic behavior (similar to file) , heavy breathing, loss of appetite, hiding, yawning and gasping at water surface as examples.

This post below sums it all and working in medical myself, I wholeheartedly agree:

Please STOP CIPROFLOXACIN DIPS and other antibiotics

It is surprisingly frequent the use of antibiotics on DIPs these days. Some users know me as a reefer only, but I am also a doctor. I will not enter the discussion on holobiont and why bacteria are important for the corals… But I would like to create a HUGE ALERT about dipping corals on...

www.reef2reef.com