Tds

AJreefs

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
May 13, 2012
Messages
225
Reaction score
0
Location
Florida
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I was watching a video on RO\DI video on chloramine specific units and got thinking! I know dangerous; if the carbon block were to clog or fail prematurely we would be dumping ammonia in our tanks... So I ask, does ammonia show up as a total dissolved solid? I think it would but I wanted to be sure
 
Good question. I would assume so but I have never asked or have heard for sure. I'm following this!
 
If your carbon block gets clogged you want have no water to put in you tank. Water passes right threw the block to get out the other side I believe.
 
Your RO membrane will remove chloramines. As additional protection, you can run carbon blocks that are specific to chloramines or use cartridges with “catalytic” carbon.

I believe we will continue to see more and more public water systems converting over to chloramines as their means of disinfection.
 
If all the filters are used up then ammonia will make it through. Carbon will get some, RO membrane removes/rejects some, and the DI finishes it. As long as you are getting 0 TDS out of your DI chances are you are removing the ammonia. If your DI is nearly spent it is possible for a tiny amount of ammonia to make it through, but once you get 1 TDS all bets are off on what nasty stuff is making it out. It is very important to make sure you are getting 0 TDS and once you see 1+ then it is time to replace the DI. 1 TDS isn't going to kill your system, but it does indicate your DI is used up.

If your water smells like chlorine though (like the city did some work on the system and added extra) it can foul up the filters quickly. I had it happen myself, 2 week old all new 7 stage filters ruined. So don't use your RO/DI units for a few days after any major work is done. Usually you can find info posted on your cities local services website, they will announce when work is being done on the water supply but you have to be proactive most of the time and check the site a couple times a month. My city does a "flush" once a year around Feb and I make sure to collect water ahead of time because it is a 3 week wait before I make water again with my filter.

Good maintenance is also a good habit to get into in regards to the RO/DI unit. Changing the pre-filter often ($3-$5 filter every 3 months) will really extend the life of the other filters. Also putting a flush kit on the membrane and doing a 30 second flush before and after each use will extend the life of the RO membrane. An inline TDS meter is the most convenient way to tell when your DI is spent. Most people that have handheld TDS meters don't usually check every time they make water, but with an inline meter you know exactly when to change it. Another good thing to do is put a valve between your RO and DI canister and close it for the first 1-2 minutes of operation so water coming out of the membrane doesn't go into the DI canister right away. This will extend the life of your DI resign and prevent what is referred to as TDS creep.

[video=youtube;JWbKnsT-kLw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWbKnsT-kLw[/video]
 
Very nice article with some good information but I noticed the wording stated that most likely you removing ammonia if you have zero tds. I have no missing livestock and out of no where I get a reading on ammonia which makes me immediately suspect my water supply. The video I watched on brs made it sound like you could be getting ammonia while reading zero tds. I will have to call and make sure it isn't a misunderstanding on my part.
 
^ +1 check your ro/di water first to see if that is the source of the ammonia and than you will know if it is a problem with your water that you are putting in or an issue in your system.
 
This article explains alot.

Reverse Osmosis/Deionization Systems to Purify Tap Water for Reef Aquaria by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

​Several issues arise relating to the depletion of the DI resins that aquarists need to be aware of. Primary among these is that when a DI resin becomes depleted, that does not simply mean that the water passes through just as it came from the RO effluent. It may actually be much worse from an aquarist’s perspective. The reason for this is that while the DI resin is functioning properly, all ions will be caught. But when it is depleted, not only the new ions are coming through and might show up in the product water, but so are all the ions that ever got into the DI resin in the first place. The total concentration of ions coming out of the exhausted DI resin will not be raised as compared to the RO's effluent, but which ions are released may be very different.

In the DI descriptions above, I did not address the fact that some ions will show a greater preference for attachment to the resin than will others. When the resins are not depleted, it does not matter what the ions’ affinity is, as all are bound. But in a depleted scenario, when there are more ions than ion binding sites, those with a higher affinity for the resin will be retained, and those with a lower affinity will be released. It turns out that silicate is found at the lower end of affinity for anion resins . Consequently, if the DI resin has been collecting silicate for a long period and is then depleted, a large burst of silicate may be released.

Perhaps even more of a concern is ammonia. In a system with chloramine in the tap water, the DI resin will serve the important function of removing much of the ammonia produced by the chloramine breakdown. Ammonia has a poorer affinity for many cation-binding resins than do many other cations (e.g., calcium or magnesium). Consequently, when the DI resin first becomes depleted, a big release of ammonia from and through the DI resin is likely. I recently had a DI resin become depleted, and the effluent contained so much ammonia that I could easily smell it.
 
The carbon block DOES NOT remove ammonia! The ammonia is partially removed by the RO membrane and polished off completely by good DI resin.
There is absolutely no reason on earth to add so called "chloramine" carbon blocks or catalytic carbon, it is the membrane and DI that are the critical components. ANY good 1 micron or less carbon block is more than adequate for chloramines ate normal drinking water residuals.
If you are replacing filters spend the money on a better quality sediment filter, no larger than 1.0 microns and abslute rated is better than nominal rated. The sole purpose of the sediment filter is to protect the carbon block so it can do its job of adsorbing chlorine, both normal chlorine and the chlorine portion of chloramines. A single 0.5 micron Matrikx +1 carbon block is all you need in this case as it is being protected and not having to act as a secondary sediment filter like in situations where they use a high micron sediment filter. Two carbons are a waste of good money and can actually be worse since every filter and component you place in front of a RO membrane has an associated pressure or head loss and reduces the membrane efficiency.

Spend your money on good filters and good fresh reef specific DI resin and leave the "choramine" filters for those who don't know any better. Its the ammonia that is the problem, not the chlorine and carbons do not adsorb ammonia, membranes and DI get the ammonia.
 
I have a new RO/DI unit (installed just over a week ago) with a dual TDS digital meter. One probe is between the RO and DI filters (where it tee's off to the drinking water canister), and the other is after the DI filter. What reading is considered "high" so I will know when to change out my filters?
 
Chloramine filters (which are just Catalytic Carbon + micron filter material around it) and Catalytic Carbon by itself split the Chloramine compound into Chlorine and Ammonia, and then the carbon removes the chlorine. In cities that use Chloramines it is a good idea to run both a Chloramine filter + Catalytic carbon because of the extra work required by the carbon to split the chloramines apart can exhaust 1 filter with carbon rather quickly. The way I think of it is 1 carbon filter is used to remove all the other nasties in the water, and 1 specifically for breaking apart chloramines and removing the chlorine.

Chloramine and the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
 
You need to know 3 TDS numbers to troubleshoot a RO/DI system. For this reason I do not recommend dual inline TDS meters as they only give you readings from two dedicated spots and cannot be used portable.
A good handheld TDS meter is far more versatile and more accurate plus allows you to test TDS from anywhere.

That being said, remove the tee and OUT probe from the RO/DI line and temporarily install it in the tap water line using a short piece of 1/4" tubing to splice it in. This will give you a baseline TDS number for your tap water so you can calculate the membrane rejection rate or removal efficiency.

The RO only TDS should be 96-98% less than the tap water TDS if the membrane is functioning correctly. So say your tap water TDS is 200, the RO only TDS should be no more than say 4 to 8. Obviously the RO/DI TDS should be 0 and when you first start seeing signs of anything other than 0 TDS it is time for a new DI cartridge or resin. DI resin starts releasing weakly ionized substances even before it is exhausted so do not wait on the replacement.
 
I disagree with you. Catalytic or chloramine carbons were developed for industrial applications where the chloramine residual is much higher than the 0.5 to 2 or so mg/L seen in most drinking waters.
It is a waste of money and years of testing by some of the best in the business has proven this out. It is not necessary period. Good carbon blocks release the bond between chlorine and ammonia perfectly fine. Spend your money where it will get you the most bang for your buck and is proven to work.

http://www.3reef.com/forums/spectra...amines-ro-membranes-carbon-filters-75699.html
 
Last edited:
I do spend my $ where it is best used, and that is on Chloramine blocks. I have a lab at my work and can test for all forms of Chlorine, chloramines, and ammonia and I know without a doubt that Chloramine blocks do in fact extend the life of the RO/DI filter as a whole. Without a chloramine block my RO membrane and DI resin get used up much quicker. It is far cheaper to add a chloramine block than it is to replace the RO membrane and DI resin 2x as fast. Yes, it is true a standard RO/DI setup will remove Chloramines, it just does it at a greater cost to the wallet by using up the RO membrane and DI resin quicker.

If you read that article, at the bottom you will see Randy Holmes-Farley's conclusion (who, IMO, is the best in our business), which mirrors my testing.

Lessons Learned and Suggestions:[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR="class: paragraph"]
[TD]1.
[/TD]
[TD]Most RO/DI systems seem capable of removing chloramine adequately for aquarists.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: paragraph"]
[TD]2.
[/TD]
[TD="width: 671"]The carbon cartridge may become less useful over time, and it is possible that the chloramine removal effectiveness of a system may be lost before the DI appears to need changing.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: paragraph"]
[TD="width: 17"]3.
[/TD]
[TD="width: 671"]Cheap sediment cartridges may expose the carbon cartridge to unnecessary fouling, which may permit chloramine to pass through the system. Cartridges should be replaced as soon as the pressure drops significantly, even if RO/DI water is still being produced at a reasonable rate or purity as measured by total dissolved solids.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: paragraph"]
[TD="width: 17"]4.
[/TD]
[TD="width: 671"]Testing for chlorine and chloramine is easy, so any concern is easily reconciled.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: paragraph"]
[TD="width: 17"]5.
[/TD]
[TD="width: 671"]One Hach kit provides several dozen test results. Our local Boston Club bought some kits and had a "water testing day." The kits can also become part of the "library" of a local club for aquarists to use once in a while to see if their systems are functioning. That way, the cost to each aquarist is minimal.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]




Conclusions
Chloramine in tap water should be a significant concern to aquarists. Its peculiar properties make it well suited to disinfection of water supplies, but also make it a potential toxin in aquaria. In order to render the water safe for use, aquarists need to use one of two systems for purification: an inorganic reducing agent combined with an additive that binds ammonia (or a single product that does both), or an RO/DI system. Chloramine is toxic enough that it would seem prudent for aquarists to spend the time and money necessary to ensure that they do not unduly stress their organisms. This activity includes setting up appropriate purification systems, and may also include testing the water to ensure that those systems are functioning properly.
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%

New Posts

Back
Top