Tech-M's Magic Bryopsis killing ingredient: Lithium

Sangheili · May 7, 2015

This appears to be a mystery (outside of Kent's offices anyway) for some time but it appears that the magic ingredient in Tech-M that kills Bryopsis is Lithium.

Between the last 2 Triton tests I have dosed pretty much nothing but Tech-M. No other levels have changed really except Magnesium (up 260ppm) and Lithium (up 2000ppm).

My last 5 Lithium values:
223.90
236.40
257.00
225.40
2626.00

Looks like I may have found the Bryopsis killer :wink:

revhtree · May 7, 2015

Hmm interesting!

Sangheili · May 7, 2015

Of course it is entirely possible that Lithium is just an "inactive" ingredient in the fight against Bryopsis and it is actually some other element that is not tested for by Triton.

I would love to see some people try to dose Lithium and see if it has an effect on Bryopsis as Tech-M does. I know Triton sells bottles of it :thumb:

JimWelsh · May 7, 2015

Very interesting! Lithium chloride is readily available, e.g., Lab Grade Lithium Chloride, 100g for sale. Buy from The Science Company.. If you take 2.312 grams of LiCl, and dissolve it in 1 liter of water, then 1 mL of that solution added to 100 gallons of tank water will increase the Li content of that water by 1 PPM.

DAPG8GT · May 7, 2015

Interesting that it raised with tech M, I wonder if it's just a coincidence .. Wonder what the scientific Reefers think about the validity of it.

Anybody know the effect of raising lithium levels in a reef tank are? Gotta do some reading now.. .

Bouncingsoul39 · May 7, 2015

Threads like these make me really miss Randy Holmes-Farley and others like him. Anyone who know's anything about the scientific method would cringe at that first post there. I'm all for experimenting, but come on....

JimWelsh · May 7, 2015

Well, anyone who knows anything about apostrophes would cringe at your post there. :wink:

Of course, a single anecdote like this means nothing, but it would be very easy to construct an experiment to test the hypothesis, assuming one had some bryopsis available.

DAPG8GT · May 7, 2015

Bouncingsoul39 said:
Threads like these make me really miss Randy Holmes-Farley and others like him. Anyone who know's anything about the scientific method would cringe at that first post there. I'm all for experimenting, but come on....

where did he go that you miss him? Could have sworn he's participating in the chemistry forum here especially the triton results .

I really don't get what is making you cringe, I see that stating it's definitely the cause of death to briopsis is a little unrealistic but at least the thread can be out there and others doing the tech M treatment while using triton testing can see if the levels raise also.

that Reef Guy · May 8, 2015

Bouncingsoul39 said:
Threads like these make me really miss Randy Holmes-Farley and others like him. Anyone who know's anything about the scientific method would cringe at that first post there. I'm all for experimenting, but come on....

Huh?

He is very very active on this site.

I am sure he will even post in this Thread soon.

that Reef Guy · May 8, 2015

Sangheili said:
This appears to be a mystery (outside of Kent's offices anyway) for some time but it appears that the magic ingredient in Tech-M that kills Bryopsis is Lithium.

Between the last 2 Triton tests I have dosed pretty much nothing but Tech-M. No other levels have changed really except Magnesium (up 260ppm) and Lithium (up 2000ppm).

My last 5 Lithium values: [TABLE="width: 300"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 60"]223.90[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 60"]236.40[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 60, align: right"]257.00[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 60, align: right"]225.40[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 60, align: right"]2626.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Looks like I may have found the Bryopsis killer :wink:

That is interesting.

I read a few posts of people complaining that their results came back with High Lithium.

One person even switched salts because of it.

I wonder if those people were using Tech-M too?

If anybody comes across any Triton Posts where people said that they had high Lithium lets ask them if they use Tech-M and post the results here.

jolt · May 8, 2015

I can tell you from personal experience that at Triton-reported lithium levels of 421.4 ug/l bryposis can thrive. I have never dosed Tech-m

Just my own datapoint ...

I agree though, if someone could scientifically establish either it works or doesn't that would be awesome.

I am way out of my league on this. But, there is some evidence that scientists think lithium-based compunds control algae growth, and at least one of the reports I read show effectiveness with little to no impact on several fish and invertebrates. I'm not really qualifed to judge any of this though.

http://www.epa.gov/oppfead1/endanger/litstatus/effects/bromacil-analysis.pdf

lithium chloride

revhtree · May 8, 2015

Bouncingsoul39 said:
Threads like these make me really miss Randy Holmes-Farley and others like him. Anyone who know's anything about the scientific method would cringe at that first post there. I'm all for experimenting, but come on....

You don't have to miss him because he's a mod here.

Randy Holmes-Farley

Randy Holmes-Farley · May 8, 2015

It is an interesting hypothesis. I assume you tracked everything else Triton tests and nothing else popped up as a substantial increase?

The lithium values in the first post must be ppb (not ppm).

Years ago i saw an analysis of magnesium chloride from the Dead Sea works on the local Boston forum, and it didn't have enough lithium in it to cause the boost you saw (more like 20 ppb). So not all brands will have lithium at such significant levels.

First Dowflake, now Magnesium...too cool - GROUP BUY FOR NOV MEETING

JimWelsh · May 8, 2015

jolt said:
I am way out of my league on this. But, there is some evidence that scientists think lithium-based compunds control algae growth, and at least one of the reports I read show effectiveness with little to no impact on several fish and invertebrates. I'm not really qualifed to judge any of this though.

http://www.epa.gov/oppfead1/endanger/litstatus/effects/bromacil-analysis.pdf

I'm pretty sure the effectiveness of the compounds in the cited report is due to the Bromacil component, and not the lithium component. But, like you, I don't really know.

jolt · May 8, 2015

JimWelsh said:
I'm pretty sure the effectiveness of the compounds in the cited report is due to the Bromacil component, and not the lithium component. But, like you, I don't really know.

On second read I have to agree with you. Looks like the lithium salt was to promote solubility of the bromacil. My mistake!

Sangheili · May 9, 2015

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
It is an interesting hypothesis. I assume you tracked everything else Triton tests and nothing else popped up as a substantial increase?

The lithium values in the first post must be ppb (not ppm).

Years ago i saw an analysis of magnesium chloride from the Dead Sea works on the local Boston forum, and it didn't have enough lithium in it to cause the boost you saw (more like 20 ppb). So not all brands will have lithium at such significant levels.

First Dowflake, now Magnesium...too cool - GROUP BUY FOR NOV MEETING

Oops yep ppb.

Here are all of my Triton results in spreadsheet form so you can judge for yourself: http://1drv.ms/1bEXCbB

It makes sense that normal Mag Chloride doesn't have much Lithium, as people who have tried to battle Bryopsis with normal Mag found no results from my research. It seems only Tech-M as a Magnesium source is effective.

Sangheili · May 9, 2015

jolt said:
I can tell you from personal experience that at Triton-reported lithium levels of 421.4 ug/l bryposis can thrive. I have never dosed Tech-m

Well that may not be enough to kill it. My Lithium went from 225 to 2626 when I raised my Magnesium about 260. Most people who have reported success with Tech-M need to raise Mag at least 200-300 to see changes.

hatfielj · May 9, 2015

These are my tank results during my dosing of Tech M to get rid of bryopsis...

JimWelsh · May 9, 2015

Sangheili, what were your Vanadium and Molybdenum levels after the Tech M dosing?

Sangheili · May 9, 2015

JimWelsh said:
Sangheili, what were your Vanadium and Molybdenum levels after the Tech M dosing?

Jim, check the spreadsheet I posted above. Vanadium has inexplicably been rising in my tank for months (way before I dosed Tech-M) and it did not spike out of ordinary from Tech-M.

Molybdenum rose but I would call it negligibly. It could very well have been more elevated in my Red Sea Blue bucket salt which I have been using a fair bit of recently for coral dips and fish acclimation.