Testing a tank without breaking it's fallow

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Had something not sure what come in on a royal Gramma it was the first fish to die, my saltwater guppies very rapidly developed white spots and started acting lethargic, they were the only fish of mine that I lost, was however able to save my clown and Molly Miller and they've been treated with copper and formaldehyde in a QT tank regularly. The tank had been fishless for 40 days or so, thoughts on testing the tank by dripping guppies into saltwater using the tank in question, I assume they would fairly rapidly show signs of whatever caused those problems if it still exists in the tank. I'm also going to scoop some sand from the tank and throw it in with the guppies just to test the full spectrum of the tank maybe even a piece of ceramic media as well. Also as a note these guppies are from my own breeding program which doesn't have any measurable salinity in the water and no visible freshwater diseases, and I've successfully dripped over a dozen guppies so it shouldn't be the acclimation that kills them.
 
I’m sure one of the respected authorities on QT will chime in but I believe for the fallow period to be effective the normal duration is 76 days??
 
I’m sure one of the respected authorities on QT will chime in but I believe for the fallow period to be effective the normal duration is 76 days??
The recommendation is 45 days (minimum) at 81F, 76 days is the hobby recommendation to be safe.
 
40 days is really a minimum on the time that it's been I can't remember exactly what day I took the fish out but it's been at around 77° f, the guppies just now after 48 hours have reached 0.002 below the salinity of the tank and I just added some sand from the tank, going to periodically observe them in a specimen container for a few days. I still don't know if I'll trust this test I just don't want to have to restart this 45 day minimum 70 to be safe process
 
40 days is really a minimum on the time that it's been I can't remember exactly what day I took the fish out but it's been at around 77° f, the guppies just now after 48 hours have reached 0.002 below the salinity of the tank and I just added some sand from the tank, going to periodically observe them in a specimen container for a few days. I still don't know if I'll trust this test I just don't want to have to restart this 45 day minimum 70 to be safe process

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

45 days is the absolute minimum for marine ich. Other diseases have longer or shorter fallow periods. To be really safe, 60 days is best.

Using the guppies as a test fish really only works for marine ich, not other diseases. Personally, I'd forgo that and just fallow the tank for 60 days.

Jay
 
Welcome to Reef2Reef!

45 days is the absolute minimum for marine ich. Other diseases have longer or shorter fallow periods. To be really safe, 60 days is best.

Using the guppies as a test fish really only works for marine ich, not other diseases. Personally, I'd forgo that and just fallow the tank for 60 days.

Jay
So flukes or brook wouldn't show on the guppies? Again when I had the outbreak the guppies were the first actual residents of the tank to die and that's why I thought they'd make a good test, of the 5 I converted I've had one death and it was the smallest guppy that is to be expected, but putting the other 4 into a clear container and observing them still shows nothing, no white spots or erratic behavior. I'm intentionally stressing them in hopes of weakening their immune system, no heater, no real filtration just an air stone to keep the water oxygenated. Their water temp dropped 10+ degrees last night, so one would think if there's anything in the water it would've found them by now but I don't know for sure so still waiting... impatiently lol.
 
So flukes or brook wouldn't show on the guppies? Again when I had the outbreak the guppies were the first actual residents of the tank to die and that's why I thought they'd make a good test, of the 5 I converted I've had one death and it was the smallest guppy that is to be expected, but putting the other 4 into a clear container and observing them still shows nothing, no white spots or erratic behavior. I'm intentionally stressing them in hopes of weakening their immune system, no heater, no real filtration just an air stone to keep the water oxygenated. Their water temp dropped 10+ degrees last night, so one would think if there's anything in the water it would've found them by now but I don't know for sure so still waiting... impatiently lol.

I don't know about Brooklynella, but flukes can be pretty specific as to their hosts. Guppies are cyprinids, flukes that infest those can infest guppies, but others, not so much.

This "canary in a coal mine" is a neat idea, but it has lots of issues. Here is a write-up I did on the topic. Personally, I won't rely on the method.

Using black mollies to screen an aquarium for Cryptocaryon

In recent years, a procedure has been promoted that uses marine-adapted freshwater mollies to screen for active Cryptocaryon infections in marine aquariums. The thought is that freshwater black mollies that are naive to marine ectoparasites, will soon develop infections if that disease is present in a marine aquarium.

With mollies being stark black, white parasites will show up in sharp contrast, making their identification much easier. Mollies have also been suggested to be housed alongside sensitive fish (that cannot be easily medicated) to serve as a “canary in the coal mine” for active disease.

The basic process is to acquire a small group of freshwater black mollies and gradually acclimate them to seawater over a period of up to 5 days. They then are added to the previously fallow aquarium, or added to the quarantine tank, and then observed for at least two weeks to see if they develop ectoparasites. If they do, then a treatment needs to be instituted, or the fallow period extended.

As with many aquarium ideas, over-extrapolation can reduce the effectiveness of the original idea. The process is really only suited to screen for Cryptocaryon. Brooklynella may not even infect mollies. Uronema and Amyloodinium can survive salinities as low as 3 ppt so may already be present in “freshwater” mollies that have been raised in brackish fish ponds. Marine and freshwater fish have basically the same internal salinity. Therefore, untreatable internal diseases, such as viruses and Myxozoans could possibly be brought into an aquarium with the mollies.

There is also a risk for introducing euryhaline trematodes into an aquarium along with black mollies. Fish farmers, wholesalers and retail dealers all understand that mollies benefit from being housed in brackish water, and so they usually add salt to systems housing mollies in order to reduce mortality under crowded conditions. Euryhaline trematodes take advantage of this, the trouble is that some of these can survive marine conditions and then hyposalinity is ineffective as a treatment for them.

Finally, black mollies have been used by scientists to propagate Cryptocaryon in laboratories. However, these studies went no further and there is no scientific evidence to indicate this method is actually effective. It is based on a theory, but it needs to be better tested. If properly applied, this process may have some benefit in screening for Cryptocaryon, but falls short for all other diseases.


Jay
 
I don't know about Brooklynella, but flukes can be pretty specific as to their hosts. Guppies are cyprinids, flukes that infest those can infest guppies, but others, not so much.

This "canary in a coal mine" is a neat idea, but it has lots of issues. Here is a write-up I did on the topic. Personally, I won't rely on the method.

Using black mollies to screen an aquarium for Cryptocaryon

In recent years, a procedure has been promoted that uses marine-adapted freshwater mollies to screen for active Cryptocaryon infections in marine aquariums. The thought is that freshwater black mollies that are naive to marine ectoparasites, will soon develop infections if that disease is present in a marine aquarium.

With mollies being stark black, white parasites will show up in sharp contrast, making their identification much easier. Mollies have also been suggested to be housed alongside sensitive fish (that cannot be easily medicated) to serve as a “canary in the coal mine” for active disease.

The basic process is to acquire a small group of freshwater black mollies and gradually acclimate them to seawater over a period of up to 5 days. They then are added to the previously fallow aquarium, or added to the quarantine tank, and then observed for at least two weeks to see if they develop ectoparasites. If they do, then a treatment needs to be instituted, or the fallow period extended.

As with many aquarium ideas, over-extrapolation can reduce the effectiveness of the original idea. The process is really only suited to screen for Cryptocaryon. Brooklynella may not even infect mollies. Uronema and Amyloodinium can survive salinities as low as 3 ppt so may already be present in “freshwater” mollies that have been raised in brackish fish ponds. Marine and freshwater fish have basically the same internal salinity. Therefore, untreatable internal diseases, such as viruses and Myxozoans could possibly be brought into an aquarium with the mollies.

There is also a risk for introducing euryhaline trematodes into an aquarium along with black mollies. Fish farmers, wholesalers and retail dealers all understand that mollies benefit from being housed in brackish water, and so they usually add salt to systems housing mollies in order to reduce mortality under crowded conditions. Euryhaline trematodes take advantage of this, the trouble is that some of these can survive marine conditions and then hyposalinity is ineffective as a treatment for them.

Finally, black mollies have been used by scientists to propagate Cryptocaryon in laboratories. However, these studies went no further and there is no scientific evidence to indicate this method is actually effective. It is based on a theory, but it needs to be better tested. If properly applied, this process may have some benefit in screening for Cryptocaryon, but falls short for all other diseases.


Jay
Thanks for the responses, I know that I probably shouldn't trust it even if they don't show anything, I'm just hopeful because I want to move a coral out of that tank but not if it could carry anything into where I want to put it. I'm pretty much just constantly doing experiments, only been in the saltwater/reef world for 4 months but I've been doing freshwater for years and currently work in a fish store/ doing commercial and residential services on tanks so just trying to learn everything I can as fast as possible.
 
I don't know about Brooklynella, but flukes can be pretty specific as to their hosts. Guppies are cyprinids, flukes that infest those can infest guppies, but others, not so much.

This "canary in a coal mine" is a neat idea, but it has lots of issues. Here is a write-up I did on the topic. Personally, I won't rely on the method.

Using black mollies to screen an aquarium for Cryptocaryon

In recent years, a procedure has been promoted that uses marine-adapted freshwater mollies to screen for active Cryptocaryon infections in marine aquariums. The thought is that freshwater black mollies that are naive to marine ectoparasites, will soon develop infections if that disease is present in a marine aquarium.

With mollies being stark black, white parasites will show up in sharp contrast, making their identification much easier. Mollies have also been suggested to be housed alongside sensitive fish (that cannot be easily medicated) to serve as a “canary in the coal mine” for active disease.

The basic process is to acquire a small group of freshwater black mollies and gradually acclimate them to seawater over a period of up to 5 days. They then are added to the previously fallow aquarium, or added to the quarantine tank, and then observed for at least two weeks to see if they develop ectoparasites. If they do, then a treatment needs to be instituted, or the fallow period extended.

As with many aquarium ideas, over-extrapolation can reduce the effectiveness of the original idea. The process is really only suited to screen for Cryptocaryon. Brooklynella may not even infect mollies. Uronema and Amyloodinium can survive salinities as low as 3 ppt so may already be present in “freshwater” mollies that have been raised in brackish fish ponds. Marine and freshwater fish have basically the same internal salinity. Therefore, untreatable internal diseases, such as viruses and Myxozoans could possibly be brought into an aquarium with the mollies.

There is also a risk for introducing euryhaline trematodes into an aquarium along with black mollies. Fish farmers, wholesalers and retail dealers all understand that mollies benefit from being housed in brackish water, and so they usually add salt to systems housing mollies in order to reduce mortality under crowded conditions. Euryhaline trematodes take advantage of this, the trouble is that some of these can survive marine conditions and then hyposalinity is ineffective as a treatment for them.

Finally, black mollies have been used by scientists to propagate Cryptocaryon in laboratories. However, these studies went no further and there is no scientific evidence to indicate this method is actually effective. It is based on a theory, but it needs to be better tested. If properly applied, this process may have some benefit in screening for Cryptocaryon, but falls short for all other diseases.


Jay
Got my answer, the guppies are now covered in white spots indicating the tank is definitely still infected. And now I see I have another tank with a similar infection which I believe I unintentionally got in the tank when hastily moving some damsels out of quarantine with the surviving fish from the 40, but I had regularly dosed that tank with ich x.
 

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