That was then this is now....do share!

[Flame2hawk]

After taking a break from the hobby for 12 years and now “diving” in with a 625g build, I am flabbergasted at the price of fish and coral. Some fish have quadrupled in cost during my 12 year absence. To be balanced, I also see different variety of beautiful fish (ie wrasses) and better collection methods/care for the fish including many quarantining before they sell. This is great for the hobby and welcomed and of cost carries a cost. Unfortunately slow advance in breeding fish in captivity. Good advance in alternatives to live rock and equipment in general. Anyone else care to share their observations on these topics vs some years ago would make for an interesting thread.....do share!

 

[Silent]

I had sticker shock also after an absence.

 

[shred5]

I have been in the reef hobby 30+ years, saltwater longer.

I think it is going to get far worse especially on the fish front.
Saltwater fish are so hard to breed and I am guessing we will see bans on collecting fish over the next year.
We are allot farther along in breeding of different species of fish but some like tangs are very hard to reproduce in large quantities because of their spawning behavior. Most saltwater fish do not spawn on a medium like freshwater fish do and will always be hard. With Hawaii we are loosing almost 1/2 a million tangs.

I think More coral bans will come the next few years too..
Prices will rise forcing allot of people out of the hobby and eventually prices settle some.
We are better off on the coral side than the fish side though. Problem is so many are focused on high priced corals that are easier to grow we are going to loose allot of the diversity in the hobby. This will cause those who think this hobby is about collecting out of the hobby because of boredom. I think we are seeing that already with the same coral being renamed over and over again.

I think with the lack of diversity of fish too the hobby will get boring for some when the only fish most can afford are clowns and gobies.

I think over the next 5 years or so this hobby shrinks pretty much.

I have talked to a few places now that think it is already starting.

I built a aquaculture system to help preserve some of those corals that are not very profitable for these coral farmers. I so some of these corals do not disappear from the hobby altogether. The only issue is it has got to expensive to even get some of the corals I want.

 

[Flame2hawk]

I am in agreement with your assessment, David. This is why it is very important to accelerated breeding programs. We have the technology and where with all to accelerate even given the difficulty, if we put collective efforts towards it. It’s been quite a shocker how little captive bred fish are available....

 

[shred5]

I am in agreement with your assessment, David. This is why it is very important to accelerated breeding programs. We have the technology and where with all to accelerate even given the difficulty, if we put collective efforts towards it. It’s been quite a shocker how little captive bred fish are available....

The big problem is the cost of starting a breeding facility and the locations they need to be in. Some of these fish require foods that are extremely hard to raise. Also where it is cheaper are on some of these island countries but they are so unstable. I mean you need climate, access to water etc. I just do not think they could ever produce enough fish to sustain the hobby like it is now. You know the size of the place just to make up for the 1/2 million yellow tangs that came from Hawaii... Breeding saltwater fish is nothing like freshwater. The food alone is so hard. This is not something someone can do in their basement like coral other than a handful of fish anyway.

Also you have to worry about laws to shut down this hobby altogether. They tried several years ago by trying to put some key corals on endanger species list making them illegal to own.

Who want to invest in a possibly declining hobby too..

I think the hobby will survive but just not like it is now. It will get very expensive for a while.

I am worried about the hobby now. We need a slow exit from wild collection and I do not think we are going to get that.
I could be wrong.

 

[Flame2hawk]

I agree that in the not too distant future there will be restrictions on what you can take from the ocean. There will be no restrictions on what you can breed, raise and sell. That will result in some rather fast paced movement into breeding. WIth all its challenges, they can be overcome if demand increases and its the only way forward. People will still want to be in the hobby and one can argue there will be more demand then ever as people feel more comfortable engaging in the hobby knowing that specimens are no longer being taken from the ocean but are being bred in captivity....this will hopefully give impetus and financial motivation as well as investment to move quicker into captive breeding programs....Perhaps we can launch an angel investing club to accelerate all of this?? Never know....

 

[shred5]

I agree that in the not too distant future there will be restrictions on what you can take from the ocean. There will be no restrictions on what you can breed, raise and sell. That will result in some rather fast paced movement into breeding. WIth all its challenges, they can be overcome if demand increases and its the only way forward. People will still want to be in the hobby and one can argue there will be more demand then ever as people feel more comfortable engaging in the hobby knowing that specimens are no longer being taken from the ocean but are being bred in captivity....this will hopefully give impetus and financial motivation as well as investment to move quicker into captive breeding programs....Perhaps we can launch an angel investing club to accelerate all of this?? Never know....

Maybe but I do not see it much.. Look at the indo torches. They banned all Indonesian corals and that is where most of our corals come from. Now people charge 800.00 or more head for indo torches.. People are looking at this as capitalizing on this and not actually looking at the future or the damage this stuff does to the hobby. I am not one of these people that says they cant charge it. They can charge what ever they want. I just think it is damaging the future of the hobby.

This hobby is not organized enough for anything.

I have been in the hobby a long time and I have never seen anything like this.

Allot of people I know that have been in the hobby are leaving all of a sudden.. These are the people the hobby survives on not like it is now where the average person does not make it 5 years. Turn over in the hobby is so high now.

You started this thread and are shocked at the prices. What happens if Australia stop shipping which is a good possibility?

These bans have nothing to do with the the reefs because mariculture was also banned.

 

[Flame2hawk]

If things and areas get banned, we will find a way forward. I’m optimistic that this type of action “breed” change rather then see the hobby fissile out. I’m going to do more research on breeding and try to apply some science to it all. I already have someone in mind to be a partner as he already is currently setting up a clown breeding room and can perhaps set some space aside to do more trial testing of other species while applying different techniques to try to get different results. One step at a time. I’ll have more time to look into this in about 6 months or so....good thread so thanks for the comments and opinions....lets keep it going!

 

[C. Eymann]

I have been in the hobby 22 years, I have seen both the advancements in technology, knowledge and aquaculture greatly benefit the growth of the hobby. Its always been a fairly steady increase of coral prices, but it has really skyrocketed in the past 5-6 years. Back in the mid 2000s the most expensive frags were ~ 100-150, only a very few could fetch that price, now it's nearly 10x that for whatever is new or hot.
It's a double edged sword as I think the collectable aspect of the "named corals" has brought more interest in the hobby, as has the availability of more affordable equipment, such as LED lighting, cheaper wave/pulse pumps etc etc.
It will be interesting to see what more restrictions and bans will do to the hobby and its growth.

 

[shred5]

If things and areas get banned, we will find a way forward. I’m optimistic that this type of action “breed” change rather then see the hobby fissile out. I’m going to do more research on breeding and try to apply some science to it all. I already have someone in mind to be a partner as he already is currently setting up a clown breeding room and can perhaps set some space aside to do more trial testing of other species while applying different techniques to try to get different results. One step at a time. I’ll have more time to look into this in about 6 months or so....good thread so thanks for the comments and opinions....lets keep it going!

I used to breed clownfish and am getting back into breeding.
Clownfish are not too bad and totally different than most fish in the saltwater hobby because they lay eggs regularly and on a medium. Allot saltwater fish like tangs drop their eggs in the current and the eggs drift with the plankton. This is hard to reproduce in a captive environment. Some tangs gather in large groups of hundreds of individuals and drop eggs and spawn right into the currents. Collecting the eggs alone can be a challenge. Also some saltwater fish only spawn a couple times a year. With clownfish I can just reach in and grab a tile they layed their eggs on. Parents pretty much tend to the eggs too.. Some saltwater fish are not too hard. some of the biggest challenges in breeding is food that is small enough and has enough nutrition. Clownfish do well on rotifers and BBS but most fish do not. Those foods are not to hard to raise. You are not raising tangs and angels on that food.

The problem is the hobby can not survive on clownfish and gobies.

No doubt this hobby has come along way in breeding but it has a very long way to go.

I do not think the hobby is going away I just think it is going to get allot smaller. Prices are going to rise and allot of people just will not want to pay that amount. Demand will be way higher than supply. I think eventually enough people leave and demand drops.

I mean people are already complaining about 800.00 torches and 1000.00 mushrooms.

I do not know if you know of the bans on the hobby the last few years but Hawaii stopped exporting fish.
Fiji stopped corals, mariculture corals and live rock. Indonesia stopped all live rock, maricultured coral and coral.

Rumor is Australia is being pressured to cut back on corals export or a complete ban. Indonesia has talked about banning fish. Caribbean fish may become limited or banned because of the lionfish evasion..

 

[shred5]

I have been in the hobby 22 years, I have seen both the advancements in technology, knowledge and aquaculture greatly benefit the growth of the hobby. Its always been a fairly steady increase of coral prices, but it has really skyrocketed in the past 5-6 years. Back in the mid 2000s the most expensive frags were ~ 100-150, only a very few could fetch that price, now it's nearly 10x that for whatever is new or hot.
It's a double edged sword as I think the collectable aspect of the "named corals" has brought more interest in the hobby, as has the availability of more affordable equipment, such as LED lighting, cheaper wave/pulse pumps etc etc.
It will be interesting to see what more restrictions and bans will do to the hobby and its growth.

Exactly and one guy paid 12000.00 for a bubble tip anemone.
Again I do not care what someone spends their money on it is there money but Wow..

Named corals do not bother me it is just a way off telling corals apart in the hobby.

I know there will be people who go you can still buy GSP for 10.00..
Yea because the hobby will survive on GSP.

 

[shred5]

I just saw this but have not confirmed it yet.

Malaysian ban official?

I heard from coral exporters that the last shipment of corals from Malaysia was this week. There’ll be no new corals from Malaysia. I can’t confirm this but this article from last month (oct 2019) seems to verify this. We probably won’t hear anything official about this as they are just revoking...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Flame2hawk]

Great comments, feedback and opinions! Self sustaining and meeting demand thru accelerated breeding programs, while challenging, seems to be the hobby’s future!