The Bacterial “Rip Clean” Method

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Tadalafil, sildenafil. Similar results yet different.

Those are extensively studied for effects and side effects so that folks can know the risks and benefits.

If the purpose here is to randomly look for benefits and detriments, that’s great.

But I don’t see any underlying reason to think the carbon dosing effect is different or better.
There are a multitude of organics that might be used for random study comparisons.

Why pick this one?

 

[Subsea]

I speculate that Reef Actif has many components to it. I am convinced that bacteria populations are encapsulated in the product along with enzymes, trace minerals and many other things..

I would like to get a detailed MSDS report on the product. Until then I am dosing phytoplankton and shucking oysters.

 

[areefer01]

I would like to get a detailed MSDS report on the product. Until then I am dosing phytoplankton and shucking oysters.

I do not recall the exact details of OSHA's 1910.1200 standard for MSDS but I do recall it only being required for hazardous chemicals and or explosives and not "all" or non hazardous products. I am several years removed from my explosive safety hat so not current on standard changes since then.

Edit: I don't think reef actif requires MSDS...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I speculate that Reef Actif has many components to it. I am convinced that bacteria populations are encapsulated in the product along with enzymes, trace minerals and many other things..

I would like to get a detailed MSDS report on the product. Until then I am dosing phytoplankton and shucking oysters.

Hans Werner of Tropic Marin, who says he is the inventor of it, has posted that it is just a long chain biopolymer carbohydrate, not any of those other things. He explicitly said it does not contain bacteria.

I think it is likely to be alginate based on it being the best known marine biopolymer carbohydrate and is readily commercially available, but it might also be something else.

 

[Subsea]

I do not recall the exact details of OSHA's 1910.1200 standard for MSDS but I do recall it only being required for hazardous chemicals and or explosives and not "all" or non hazardous products. I am several years removed from my explosive safety hat so not current on standard changes since then.

Edit: I don't think reef actif requires MSDS...

it was. a joke

 

[areefer01]

it was. a joke

Totally went over my head. My apologies!

 

[Subsea]

Totally went over my head. My apologies!

earlier, I said we were going to have fun here. I am only serious sometimes

 

[Subsea]

Hans Werner of Tropic Marin, who says he is the inventor of it, has posted that it is just a long chain biopolymer carbohydrate, not any of those other things. He explicitly said it does not contain bacteria.

I think it is likely to be alginate based on it being the best known marine biopolymer carbohydrate and is readily commercially available, but it might also be something else.

We are going to have to call it magic.

 

[Subsea]

Please keep updating this pictures and any other observations you see whether they are positive or negative.

lights on 8 hours after increasing dose of biofloc 1/3, then double dosing during lights out

Black patch & maroon patch continue to strengthen slightly:

PS. @sixty_reefer
I will continue biofloc protocol for one more 24 hour cycle. Then, I will resort to vaccume maintenance. I will do a precision RIP clean and only target cyanobacteria.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Any evidence supporting that assertion?

Yes, I will have to get back to you tomorrow as spending the weekend away with the family.

Here’s a interesting article meanwhile

Bacterial Metabolism - Medical Microbiology - NCBI Bookshelf

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Subsea]

This is starting point of Dual 55G Skid tanks. Initially set up to process 200lbs of diver collected live rock & 50 lbs of live sand from Gulf Live Rock. The top 55G display is skimmerless, sumpless and fishless, with a powerful biochemical filter that uses a reverse flow thru 2” of aroggonite to perform powerful oxidation chemistry and the cryptic void in plenum is the habitat for the “sponge loop” that feeds detritus to the microbial loop and recycles POC back into the system as DIC which feeds photosynthesis that converts carbon dioxide into glucose.

In instrumentation, we call this ” a positive feedback loop”.

In Nature, we call this “Sustainable Maraculture”

PS: Top apex predators are Sally Lightfoot Crab and six Peppermint Shrimp.


Dual 55G tanks
Because this is a thread about bacteria and management of bacteria using diverse filter feeders specific enzymes, I will use liquid seaweed (inorganic carbon & little nitrogen) to favor growth for everyone and compliment that with phytoplankton as an organic carbon source.

There are no fish in this tank, I choose to favor amphipods & copepods as my gardeners, I can see them better than the bacteria. I also have much green macro algae and several red macros. Included in this tank are a variety of ornamental sponges, with my most recent joy two deep water NPS Gorgonions. The flame scallop is hiding and healthy.

I should note, that I occasional dose 5ml of ammonia when lights come on.

Note the last picture of muscle shell on sand bottom. Twenty four hours ago, I took live mussel from r

Eight hours after dosing tank green with 1000ml of live phytoplankton, water is clear again

 

[Dburr1014]

Nothing for me to report other than a 4th 1/4 dose.

 

[Tony Thompson]

Thanks @sixty_reefer for the thread I had some time to fill and found this thread very entertaining. I mean that in a positive sense. I do have an interest in pre biotics.

Tropic Marin® Reef Actif
As far as I am aware this product has been around for some time. at least (15 years) As a former Tropic Marin Dealer, I have used the product myself along with a number of other Tropic Marin Products, both in my store coral aquaculture and at home.

I have also used the Tropic Marin salt Tropic Marin® Bio-Actif sea salt which as far as I am aware contains 'Tropic Marin® Reef Actif ' also in Tropic Marin® Syn-Biotic Sea Salt which contains the pre and probiotics.

Consequently they are numerous reviews and anecdotal evidence available as to user experience. This may have baring on any plans for further experiments.

I see you are a UK reefer, for your information as far as I am aware Aqubiomics is available in the UK, I was a dealer in my own shop just last year. Through Oceamo, you should contact Dr. Christoph Denk and ask who the UK distributor is. Or you can have it shipped to the UK.

I was intrigued by the number of citations popping up from some very obscure positions Did you notice the errors in the first citation? I am surprised this was published after revision.

Most entertaining for myself was the intermittent responses from @Randy Holmes-Farley, just to bring things back in line with reality.

Although I prefer to read published articles on reef magazines by respected authorities. I do agree that discussions like this on Reef Forums are an integral part of the hobby and community at least to bring some form of clarity or at least define questions for later discussion.

Back to reading Reef Notes by Julian Sprung, its amazing how many of the same topics keep coming around like revolving doors.

Best wishes, Tony,

 

[sixty_reefer]

Thanks @sixty_reefer for the thread I had some time to fill and found this thread very entertaining. I mean that in a positive sense. I do have an interest in pre biotics.

Tropic Marin® Reef Actif
As far as I am aware this product has been around for some time. at least (15 years) As a former Tropic Marin Dealer, I have used the product myself along with a number of other Tropic Marin Products, both in my store coral aquaculture and at home.

I have also used the Tropic Marin salt Tropic Marin® Bio-Actif sea salt which as far as I am aware contains 'Tropic Marin® Reef Actif ' also in Tropic Marin® Syn-Biotic Sea Salt which contains the pre and probiotics.

Consequently they are numerous reviews and anecdotal evidence available as to user experience. This may have baring on any plans for further experiments.

I see you are a UK reefer, for your information as far as I am aware Aqubiomics is available in the UK, I was a dealer in my own shop just last year. Through Oceamo, you should contact Dr. Christoph Denk and ask who the UK distributor is. Or you can have it shipped to the UK.

I was intrigued by the number of citations popping up from some very obscure positions Did you notice the errors in the first citation? I am surprised this was published after revision.

Most entertaining for myself was the intermittent responses from @Randy Holmes-Farley, just to bring things back in line with reality.

Although I prefer to read published articles on reef magazines by respected authorities. I do agree that discussions like this on Reef Forums are an integral part of the hobby and community at least to bring some form of clarity or at least define questions for later discussion.

Back to reading Reef Notes by Julian Sprung, its amazing how many of the same topics keep coming around like revolving doors.

Best wishes, Tony,

Hi Tony, I had no idea that Oceamo was a UK dealer, I just had a look and they out of stock. left a message looking to find out once back in stock.
this has been my greatest curiosity for some time.

 

[Subsea]

Musings From the couch:

As I ponder the ebb & flow of the universe, I see conflict between man’s science which is technology and NATUR’s SCIENCE. When John Tuullock said, “Less technology / more biology” in “The Natural Aquarium” he coalesced my path as a reef hobbyist: Reefer. So now, my “battle cry”,

ITS NOT NICE TO FOOL MOTHER NATURE

 

[Subsea]

Last dark cycle, I added massive amounts of organic food into all three systems in the biofloc comparison test: six live mussels & 5 liters of live Tetraselmis phytoplankton in a brine of sterilized aquarium water fertilized with modified Guillard f2 & liquid seaweed.

On 120G system, 3 grams of biofloc added during lights out for second night in a row: double TM max recommended dose. One live mussels was diced and feed to fish and one live mussel was smashed and dropped into the tank.
PS: This system is steady improving. Is it all because of Reef Actif? I say nay. Renewed sandbed maintenance after copper & electricity invasion coupled with bioflic tecnology will win the war. At this point, I will maintain 100% full dose of 3 grams every 2 days.
@sixty_reefer
Is there an advantage to dosing 59% every day as opposed to 100% every two days?

75G system at 25yrs mature was feed 4 grams of biofloc for the second night in a row: quadruple TM recommend maximum dose. At first light, black patch is somewhat reduced, maroon patch is very consolidated and robust. Yesterday this tank was feed two live mussels that were sliced & diced.
PS: Today, I will be the janitor of the reef and vacuum out offensive stuff. I will also discontinue the use of Reef Actif as I am happy with my bugs.

55G Caribbean mixed garden lagoon had the mist phytoplankton that I have ever feed a system. 1000ml at first light and 4000ml at first dark:

 

[Subsea]

Yes, I will have to get back to you tomorrow as spending the weekend away with the family.

Here’s a interesting article meanwhile

Bacterial Metabolism - Medical Microbiology - NCBI Bookshelf

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

@sixty_reefer

Thank you for the article link. I often go there, yet had not viewed that information. It addresses what Mister Bishop “tongue in cheek” said: Wild, Wild West of bacteria.

The first two paragraphs explained how amino acids are produced in our reef tanks with bacteria oxidizing proteins of both plants & animals / carbohydrates & proteins.

 

[sixty_reefer]

@sixty_reefer

Thank you for the article link. I often go there, yet had not viewed that information. It addresses what Mister Bishop “tongue in cheek” said: Wild, Wild West of bacteria.

The first two paragraphs explained how amino acids are produced in our reef tanks with bacteria oxidizing proteins of both plants & animals / carbohydrates & proteins.

I tend to agree and organic Carbon seems to plays a major role on the winning side.

Quote:

A laboratory experiment was performed to test whether differences in nutrient and energy demands between picophytoplankton and heterotrophic bacteria can explain the apparent inverse biomass relationship between these organisms in lakes along gradients of organic carbon and nutrients. Growth rates and final yield of cells were analyzed in crossed gradients of glucose and phosphate. Concentrations of phosphate (10, 25, and 60 microg P L(-1)) and glucose (0, 0.3, and 3 mg C L(-1)) were used in all possible combinations giving 9 different treatments. Heterotrophic bacteria had higher maximum growth rates in all treatments and became larger than picophytoplankton in many treatments. The variance in abundance of heterotrophic bacteria between treatments could almost completely be explained by the combined effects of glucose and P. In treatments where carbon limitation slowed down the growth of heterotrophic bacteria, picophytoplankton became abundant and these organisms showed a positive response to P in combination with a negative response to glucose. The negative effect of glucose on picophytoplankton is suggested to be indirect and caused by competition with bacteria that are favored by organic C. The results suggest that competition for phosphate between phytoplankton and bacteria is not size-dependent, that heterotrophic bacteria are superior competitors for P, and that organic C produced by picophytoplankton was of minor importance for heterotrophic bacteria.

Quote:

Picoplanktons consist predominantly of cyanobacteria < 3 μm in size (Ivanikova et al., 2007). Representatives of these ecological groups very rarely create stable scums through buoyancy regulation (Mur et al., 1999).

Source:

Picoplankton - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

www.sciencedirect.com

Competition between picoplanktonic cyanobacteria and heterotrophic bacteria along crossed gradients of glucose and phosphate - PubMed

A laboratory experiment was performed to test whether differences in nutrient and energy demands between picophytoplankton and heterotrophic bacteria can explain the apparent inverse biomass relationship between these organisms in lakes along gradients of organic carbon and nutrients. Growth...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[reefluvrr]

It’s unfortunate that there isn’t any other product similar to actif on the market to be able to compare it with although in my mind it crossed a few times to try and compare it to tapioca (complex carbohydrate) to evaluate if the complexity of the carbohydrate could be key in only be able to be metabolised by certain types of bacteria.

My Reef Actif arrived 4 days ago and I have started using Reef Actif in both my 15 gallon and 40 gallon tank. My 15 gallon is a 1 month old tank and I was struggling with wiping algae off my glass daily. After 3 days of dosing, I do not have to clean my glass for the last two days. Wow! The water look so much clearer. I love all the products I have used from Tropic Marin and am very thankful to Hans taking his time to answer my questions on Reef2Reef. I will continue to use Tropic Marin products.

For the sake of science and knowledge though. I have found this product called Coral Balance from Tropic Marin:
https://www.faunamarin.de/en/8143/---

Marine biopolymers in active form for nutrient regulation and stabilization in reef aquariums. Coral Balance: food, detoxification, regulation.​

This product appears be similar to Reef Actif?

@Subsea and @sixty_reefer thoughts of this product?

Also can you help me understand by what you mean by dosing biofloc? Is it a general term for dosing Reef Actif?

 

[sixty_reefer]

@reefluvrr It seems that I was wrong and there is another product that could be similar to actif, from reading the description it does sound to be very similar although it gives a hint that may contain trace elements and some other nutrients besides organic carbon. It also seems to be stronger concentration that would indicate shorter chains.

it’s amazing how small changes can do such a difference I always connect glass cleaning with excess nutrients that a system can’t handle on its own.