The Bacterial “Rip Clean” Method

[sixty_reefer]

Isn’t the idea of the reef actif to remove organic carbon? Wouldn’t dosing mb7 be adding to the problem butt it is aimed more towards heterotrophic bacterias and essentially the same as carbon dosing? Just want to be clear as I did not seem to like mb7.

Reef actif is a natural carbohydrate, that is an organic carbon similar to brown sugar and molasses.
mb7 will have some organic carbon although the type of organic carbon is unknown.
The difference here is that some types of organic carbon like vodka and vinegar normally are more effective with pelagic bacteria that reduces no3 and po4, carbohydrates seem to stimulate the growth of heterotrophic decomposing bacteria that feeds on dead organic compounds.

 

[Subsea]

Isn’t the idea of the reef actif to remove organic carbon? Wouldn’t dosing mb7 be adding to the problem butt it is aimed more towards heterotrophic bacterias and essentially the same as carbon dosing? Just want to be clear as I did not seem to like mb7.

Let’s park at “remove organic carbon”.

I use biofloc differrently. In 75G 25yr mature, high nutrient reef tank; I strive to encourage specific bacteria to outcompete my nuisance algae, in this case, Cynobacteria. I see this method similarly to using diatoms to outcompete Dinos, in the case of diatoms use silicates. To encourage certain bacteria species, I now use biofloc.

 

[areefer01]

Hi, on this thread we are working together to verify if actif can be beneficial at reducing the growth of nuisance photosynthetic organisms, I have been using actif for a long time and noticed that in a system with poor filtration nuisances we’re struggling to take over. The suspicion is that actif encourages the growth and divisions of beneficial decomposing bacteria that reduces organic matter in a system by assimilating them into their mass that if left unchecked it can contribute to the growth of nuisance organisms like GHA and Cyanobacteria.
it’s a basic bacterial nutrient export as you mentioned, it’s just showing to be effective at reducing pollutants that case issues
In addition as @Subsea mentions is a great way to transform uneaten food into bacteria that will be beneficial for organisms that prey on them, for example my sea star is doing fairly well with that extra nutrients.

Hi Sixty - thank you for the reply and details.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Reef actif is a natural carbohydrate, that is an organic carbon similar to brown sugar and molasses.
mb7 will have some organic carbon although the type of organic carbon is unknown.
The difference here is that some types of organic carbon like vodka and vinegar normally are more effective with pelagic bacteria that reduces no3 and po4, carbohydrates seem to stimulate the growth of heterotrophic decomposing bacteria that feeds on dead organic compounds.

I'm not aware of the exact polymer used in Reef Actif, but I have some speculations.

But I challenge the idea that it is similar to brown sugar, which is mostly sucrose by regulatory requirement, and there's no evidence except perhaps comments from Tropic Marin about why it might be "better" than other organics such as acetate.

All organic compounds are dead and all bacteria that consume and metabolize them are heteotrophic.

 

[Subsea]

I think I may start trying to dose actif. I may be wrong but I believe people who go through nuisance such as Dino’s, cyano, or gha. Have experienced out of balance nutrients(starving beneficial bacteria)or used products such as mb7 and may have unbalanced the beneficial bacteria’s in the tank. I once used too much GAC to remove organics, and stripped trace elements from my tank.
When I had these isssues I found it was best to stop using products and allow my n & p to rise while maintaining trace elements. I believed this allowed my biome to estamblish and eventually start out competing the algae’s naturally.
I now am trying to restablish the best biome I can in my tank.

Kudos to this post. This is the Age of Enlightenment in Reefkeeping.

Products don’t make for good nutrient management without knowledge of system dynamycs.

 

[p1u5h13r4m24]

Reef actif is a natural carbohydrate, that is an organic carbon similar to brown sugar and molasses.
mb7 will have some organic carbon although the type of organic carbon is unknown.
The difference here is that some types of organic carbon like vodka and vinegar normally are more effective with pelagic bacteria that reduces no3 and po4, carbohydrates seem to stimulate the growth of heterotrophic decomposing bacteria that feeds on dead organic compounds.

I felt that when I used mb7 and my N & P were low I wasn’t able to establish a well rounded bacteria biome. I believed the mb7 bacteria was outcompeting other bacteria I needed. Having the low N & P also didn’t help my bacteria biome grow, but as I mentioned when I stopped the mb7 and raised nutrients things got much better. However I still have to clean the glass every day it’s been a long recovery process and I believe that this will help. I can’t seem to find any for sale anywhere though!

 

[littlefishy]

"even my good friend Maritza the Vase Reef doesn't clean her sandbed, its untouched for about 6 yrs now and that system is 1.2 gallons total volume and more sps than any reef on this board per unit of fluid, its a packed old system and even though her bed isn't manually cleaned like others do, she's doing 90-100% water changes weekly and scraping up the top mulm in the out flow, so that is preventing incursion. she's also dosing weekly a digestion product bacteria, non nitrifiers but sludge digesters which reduce mulm even further and then the water changes carry out their compounds in harmony.

there are always ways of working with sandbeds and not disturbing them and still being waste minded." Brandon circa March 6 2018 in a detritus thread.

@brandon429 is this a nano example you shared of exactly what sixtyreefer is talking about doing or am I reading this wrong, and what product do you think your friend used to reduce organic sludge or mulm successfully?

 

[p1u5h13r4m24]

I'm not aware of the exact polymer used in Reef Actif, but I have some speculations.

But I challenge the idea that it is similar to brown sugar, which is mostly sucrose by regulatory requirement, and there's no evidence except perhaps comments from Tropic Marin about why it might be "better" than other organics such as acetate.

All organic compounds are dead and all bacteria that consume and metabolize them are heteotrophic.

Randy do you agree that acetate or reef actif would stimulate a different type of bacteria to grow than just plain carbon dosing or vodka dosing?
From my understanding of this post the goal is to remove organic waste. Although a it will happen, the goal is not so much lower N & P like vodka or carbon dosing would.

Just making sure I’m understanding all of this correctly

 

[Subsea]

Because I use a regional agriculture lab to do plant & water analysis, I also get newsletters & podcast from Ward Lab in Kerney, Nebraska. Last week was a scientist taking how differrent carbon sources produced different results

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Randy do you agree that acetate or reef actif would stimulate a different type of bacteria to grow than just plain carbon dosing or vodka dosing?
From my understanding of this post the goal is to remove organic waste. Although a it will happen, the goal is not so much lower N & P like vodka or carbon dosing would.

Just making sure I’m understanding all of this correctly

While I do not know which species would thrive best with any given organic, I think it is reasonable to speculate that the assembly of bacteria that grow the most over time will depend on three things:

1. The bacteria present and the numbers of each species at the start
2. The other attributes of the system that bacteria care about, such as surfaces to adhere to, trace elements, etc.
3. The specific organic(s) added

The third point is closest to your question, but I see no reason to assume that dosing actiff reduces other organics any more than dosing acetate or ethanol might reduce other organics (by increasing the numbers of bacteria present that want to consume organics). It is even possible that all types of organic dosing increase organics in the water, released from bacteria, alive or dead.

It's a reasonable hypothesis that increasing the numbers of bacteria that want to consume actiff will reduce the natural levels of that polymer in the water (if there is, in fact, any present), but to suggest those bacteria will be better at removing other organics (such as proteins) is not, IMO, especially likely. There is certainly no reason to assume it is true.

 

[Subsea]

As a former municipal wastewater superintendent, I know with much research, that carbon source matters with respect to microbe mitigation. And not only does the carbon source matter, but when it is applied matters a lot.

Tzachi M. Samocha, Ph.D.
Texas AgriLife Research Mariculture Laboratory at Flour Bluff

Ask Professor Tzachi who has since retired from academia and is a consulting Microbiologist for small intensive shrimp farms using zero water exchange, then reusing spent water after cleaning with seaweed.

“Under these study conditions, a marketable sized product was produced at a biomass of 7.3 kg/m3” in 48 days.

PS: I toured the research facility at Flour Bluff and gave them a 5G bucket of Chaetomorphy to seed their algae polishing system and they gave me 10 lbs of large fresh shrimp that were still swimming.

 

[HomebroodExotics]

As a former municipal wastewater superintendent, I know with much research, that carbon source matters with respect to microbe mitigation. And not only does the carbon source matter, but when it is applied matters a lot.

Tzachi M. Samocha, Ph.D.
Texas AgriLife Research Mariculture Laboratory at Flour Bluff

Ask Professor Tzachi who has since retired from academia and is a consulting Microbiologist for small intensive shrimp farms using zero water exchange, then reusing spent water after cleaning with seaweed.

“Under these study conditions, a marketable sized product was produced at a biomass of 7.3 kg/m3” in 48 days.

PS: I toured the research facility at Flour Bluff and gave them a 5G bucket of Chaetomorphy to seed their algae polishing system.

If it matters so much then why is he unable to say what the best source is? Does he say what the "best" source would be?

 

[Subsea]

If it matters so much then why is he unable to say what the best source is? Does he say what the "best" source would be?

Who is he?

 

[Dburr1014]

Well, my reef actif hit my door step today.
I will be joining in soon enough. Tonight will be some before pics.
I noticed this morning cyano went crazy and I have some sheets to clean up in the sump.
I'm thinking it was the MB7 I was dosing.

 

[brandon429]

@littlefishy

this is the general summary I believe all parties would find fair:

this thread here is about supplementation of bacteria already inside a reef tank by selective nutrient maintenance through these tropic marin dosers they’re reviewing. The end goal is better coral growth and targeted reduction of undesirable growths in the display

you can see results here build over time in both large and small, new and old systems as they get posted. The thread will take time to build with entrants and in a few months we can review trending to assign validity to the method and in the end purchases of this doser in review.

the contrast here is an already established method of maintaining bacteria in a reef tank via export, not addition or nutrient maintenance. A rip clean is simply taking a reef tank apart and washing out all its sand in certain way to attain complete cleanliness in one pass, vs a hands-off + wait method


a rip clean specifically removes blanketing waste and invasion complexes from surfaces so that already present bacteria on rocks and substrates are re exposed. When things blanket our surface area, processes on live rock get less efficient. We do backflushing of entire reef displays in order to free up from competition already selected bacteria and microorganisms


by physicality of removal, not by addition and boosting. two opposing ways to similar ends, it’s a search for efficiency and quality of outcome.

we have conducted maybe five hundred rip cleans, physically taking a reef display both large and small, old and new and cleaning them 100% and they’re searchable by key term for this site and others. I do them as private message jobs for friends online

we take their tank apart, handle it over the course of a few hours like a dentist would handle a dirty mouth and we put the reef back together without invader massed and without waste anywhere in the tank.

the downside is that large tanks can’t easily do this and that lots of water is used up rinsing out filthy diaper sandbeds, the upside is we have done 500+ tank repairs on demand and everyone likes the outcome. it’s already documented for hundreds of jobs


methods progress and evolve in reefing. This thread here is evolution of the physical rip clean method and we like to pick on one another like swats in a locker room regarding methods, means and practices. In the end we are all pressing for the ideal reefing method it’s as simple as that. I can tell you for sure that tropic marin puts out quality supplements, it’s a crime that no LFS’s in the greater Austin area sell their premade water. we have to settle for lesser quality water than my old LFS in Lubbock who sold crystal clean, .025 tropic marin water

 

[HomebroodExotics]

Who is he?

Your buddy Tzachi.

 

[Dburr1014]

System is coming up on 9 years.
75 standard, total volume is 100 gallons.
Full tank shot from just now, untouched.



I don't have a whole lot of GHA, but what I have is hard for the CUC and
fish to get to. Here are some problem areas. In between and under some Coral which make it hard for them to eat.

As for my Sump here are a few pictures of the cyanobacteria that formed over this weekend in some sheets. This I'm going to clean up before I start. I don't want that to be staying in the system while I treat. I'm looking to Target the green hair algae and this would be a nice side effect if this would stay away. I have always had cyano and my sump since startup.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I'm not aware of the exact polymer used in Reef Actif, but I have some speculations.

I’d be curious to your thoughts, carbohydrates are being extracted from micro and macro algaes for biofuels production.
kelp could potentially be one of the ingredients as it’s widely farmed

But I challenge the idea that it is similar to brown sugar, which is mostly sucrose by regulatory requirement, and there's no evidence except perhaps comments from Tropic Marin about why it might be "better" than other organics such as acetate.

This was in relation to differentiate the type of carbon (carbohydrate) that folks may be more familiar with, organic brown sugar also contains molasses that have some frutose and glucose.
Acetic acid is not a carbohydrate hence the bacteria can’t metabolize it as a carbohydrate.

quote from the article that no one never reads:

molasses are rapidly soluble in water and can be quickly absorbed by heterotrophic bacteria 3. In terms of chemical structure, molasses are classified as a simple carbohydrate containing six C atoms (monosaccharides), while sucrose (treatment D) is a combination of two monosaccharides that contain 12 C atoms (sucrose). Tapioca is classified as a complex carbohydrate (60,000 C atoms) and is more slowly digested by bacteria than molasses.

the difference may be in the number of C atoms.

All organic compounds are dead and all bacteria that consume and metabolize them are heteotrophic.

I know sometimes we just have to remin

 

[Dburr1014]

System is coming up on 9 years.
75 standard, total volume is 100 gallons.
Full tank shot from just now, untouched.



I don't have a whole lot of GHA, but what I have is hard for the CUC and
fish to get to. Here are some problem areas. In between and under some Coral which make it hard for them to eat.

As for my Sump here are a few pictures of the cyanobacteria that formed over this weekend in some sheets. This I'm going to clean up before I start. I don't want that to be staying in the system while I treat. I'm looking to Target the green hair algae and this would be a nice side effect if this would stay away. I have always had cyano and my sump since startup.

I think what I'm going to be doing for my tank will be quarter doses nightly for the first week then move to half doses for the second week nightly. I will reassess from there and see if anything is happening.
If 3g is a spoon, I need 75% as full dose divided by 4.
2.25g / 4 = .56g... Sound right? Sound too aggressive to start?

Since somebody mentioned the skimmer and do have a question. Should it be running while we dose? Should I shut it off for an hour after dose or the whole night after Dose or don't bother shutting it off at all?

 

[sixty_reefer]

I felt that when I used mb7 and my N & P were low I wasn’t able to establish a well rounded bacteria biome. I believed the mb7 bacteria was outcompeting other bacteria I needed. Having the low N & P also didn’t help my bacteria biome grow, but as I mentioned when I stopped the mb7 and raised nutrients things got much better. However I still have to clean the glass every day it’s been a long recovery process and I believe that this will help. I can’t seem to find any for sale anywhere though!

Organic carbon and very low nutrients can become problematic due to some bacteria become limited in growth by nitrates and phosphates, wend we implement any type of carbon dosing we always need to ensure that we have a safe residual of both.
As you may observe in this thread this form of carbon dosing don’t impact nitrates and phosphates as much as other types of carbon dosing.