The DSR Method (Dutch Synthetic Reefing)

[Skibum]

@laverda ok, thanks. Misunderstood (still learning with regards to dosing and the various methods). I was coming at it from the EZ DRS side that is dosing 4 things (carbon, buffer, calcium, and trace) and assumed it was similar to the two, three, DIY, BRS, and ESV Bionic stuff. It gets a bit confusing and while my ultimate goal is to manage fewer water changes but maintain a healthy mixed reef a map with a YOU ARE HERE or start here is something I'm still looking for to learn. I've been doing the same thing more or less since I started in 2000 and know the one thing I'm hurting at is replacing things that get used day by day in the reef by not doing consistent water changes or dosing. SO while I considering success in not losing fish or corals and things look good - I know things are missing based on what I'm reading in the chemistry forum(s).

I'm just trying to keep things simple so family members can help while I'm out and I really don't like performing water changes (lazy). So thanks for clarifying.

I get you with the simple part. I have a bunch of kids (6) oldest is 11. So this method appealed to me. You don't need to worry so much about *other elements*.

Automatic Dosing:

Alk
CA
MG
Carbon

As Needed:
No3 (I have to dose this now, about 4.5 ML a week (from Glenn's product)
Po4 (I don't have to dose this yet, see below)

Fe+ (for Po4 removal) This can be daily for newer tanks like mine, < 2 years. Once the tank is established you will have lots of organisms that utilize it. You will have to more likely than not dose Po4.
Fe (for maintenance after Po4 is at or below .04

___

The others

iodine (dose daily) don't even test just dose maximum to calculator
B -every 3 months test
Sr- every 3 months test
K-every 3 months test

I do the last 3 w/ICP correct and be done with it.

That's the way I do it. YMMV

-Tom

 

[laverda]

@laverda ok, thanks. Misunderstood (still learning with regards to dosing and the various methods). I was coming at it from the EZ DRS side that is dosing 4 things (carbon, buffer, calcium, and trace) and assumed it was similar to the two, three, DIY, BRS, and ESV Bionic stuff. It gets a bit confusing and while my ultimate goal is to manage fewer water changes but maintain a healthy mixed reef a map with a YOU ARE HERE or start here is something I'm still looking for to learn. I've been doing the same thing more or less since I started in 2000 and know the one thing I'm hurting at is replacing things that get used day by day in the reef by not doing consistent water changes or dosing. SO while I considering success in not losing fish or corals and things look good - I know things are missing based on what I'm reading in the chemistry forum(s).

I'm just trying to keep things simple so family members can help while I'm out and I really don't like performing water changes (lazy). So thanks for clarifying.

It is hard to lay out map as there are many ways to have a success reef tsnk snd the hobby is constantly evolving and learning netter ways to keep tanks successfully.
Like you, water changes are low om my list of things I want to do. More importantly I have never been very consistent about doing them, except when I had a nano on my desk at work. It was easy to change a gallon or 2 diring a lunch break once a week then.
Testing is not my favorite either. I test my ALK weekly, If it is too far off I test me Ca as well. Everything thing else I test monthly. I was testing more often when I first started with DSR. As I figured out the system and got things dialed in, less testing was needed.

 

[laverda]

I get you with the simple part. I have a bunch of kids (6) oldest is 11. So this method appealed to me. You don't need to worry so much about *other elements*.

Automatic Dosing:

Alk
CA
MG
Carbon

As Needed:
No3 (I have to dose this now, about 4.5 ML a week (from Glenn's product)
Po4 (I don't have to dose this yet, see below)

Fe+ (for Po4 removal) This can be daily for newer tanks like mine, < 2 years. Once the tank is established you will have lots of organisms that utilize it. You will have to more likely than not dose Po4.
Fe (for maintenance after Po4 is at or below .04

___

The others

iodine (dose daily) don't even test just dose maximum to calculator
B -every 3 months test
Sr- every 3 months test
K-every 3 months test

I do the last 3 w/ICP correct and be done with it.

That's the way I do it. YMMV

-Tom

I think I will be able to test less often as well. For now I am still continuing to get my dosing amounts dialed in.

 

[Genomecop]

@Skibum Thanks for that post. Made it easier to understand.

 

[glennf]

You can work with a CR.
But i prefer to work without, because i get more info and have more control with only dosings. You can follow the tank dynamics much better, more accuraat en act quicker than with CR.

Just as a bump to my question earlier, is it possible to run a version of this system w a calcium reactor and supplement what’s being used up faster ? (I assume so). The goal is to avoid water changes.

Ps I am unable to find a boron test kit by salifert , says it has been discontinued

 

[User1]

Thanks @Skibum and @laverda for the information and replies. I apologize that I didn't do that sooner. This is something that I am still interested in while doing some research on how I can achieve dosing in an automated way. Since I have a Apex unit the DOS is a possibility in which case I could deploy one today and start dosing at least two of the EZ-Products. I am looking to start with the EZ method first to see how I do. Having said that, I do have a few questions if anyone doesn't mind.

1. Ez DSR is made up of 4 products. EZ Buffer, calcium, trace, and carbon. I'm in US/Cali so looking to buy something comparable over the counter unless it is something I can also possibly make(?). If I wanted to start it may be easier to buy off the shelf pre-packaged products while I learn. Any recommendations or sources so I can look at and buy? Especially the trace elements?

2. Test kits - it seems Salifert is recommended and may be personal choice. I was originally looking at the Red Sea foundation / pro line since it included the main three has one package. Does it matter? Reading some reviews it seems Salifert is fine. If so I am guessing ALK/KH, Calcium, and Mag to start? Anything else so I can get numbers after my next water change? I'm guessing I would test again at least every other day to try and calculate consumption?

3. After more reading it seems auto dosing units are a must. If so, then I probably need to wait until I have 4 units to dose properly. I can at least start some tests to see what the use pattern is. That seems like a good place to start.

 

[rushbattle]

Thanks @Skibum and @laverda for the information and replies. I apologize that I didn't do that sooner. This is something that I am still interested in while doing some research on how I can achieve dosing in an automated way. Since I have a Apex unit the DOS is a possibility in which case I could deploy one today and start dosing at least two of the EZ-Products. I am looking to start with the EZ method first to see how I do. Having said that, I do have a few questions if anyone doesn't mind.

1. Ez DSR is made up of 4 products. EZ Buffer, calcium, trace, and carbon. I'm in US/Cali so looking to buy something comparable over the counter unless it is something I can also possibly make(?). If I wanted to start it may be easier to buy off the shelf pre-packaged products while I learn. Any recommendations or sources so I can look at and buy? Especially the trace elements?

2. Test kits - it seems Salifert is recommended and may be personal choice. I was originally looking at the Red Sea foundation / pro line since it included the main three has one package. Does it matter? Reading some reviews it seems Salifert is fine. If so I am guessing ALK/KH, Calcium, and Mag to start? Anything else so I can get numbers after my next water change? I'm guessing I would test again at least every other day to try and calculate consumption?

3. After more reading it seems auto dosing units are a must. If so, then I probably need to wait until I have 4 units to dose properly. I can at least start some tests to see what the use pattern is. That seems like a good place to start.

It would be much easier, and much more effective, with a dosing unit with four channels for EZ. I do not think you will be able to DIY something like the EZDSR without doing the individual dosing of all the component first to get an idea of what’s used at what rate. Best left to folks like Glenn (DSR), triton, ati, or very advanced hobbiests.

 

[Skibum]

Thanks @Skibum and @laverda for the information and replies. I apologize that I didn't do that sooner. This is something that I am still interested in while doing some research on how I can achieve dosing in an automated way. Since I have a Apex unit the DOS is a possibility in which case I could deploy one today and start dosing at least two of the EZ-Products. I am looking to start with the EZ method first to see how I do. Having said that, I do have a few questions if anyone doesn't mind.

1. Ez DSR is made up of 4 products. EZ Buffer, calcium, trace, and carbon. I'm in US/Cali so looking to buy something comparable over the counter unless it is something I can also possibly make(?). If I wanted to start it may be easier to buy off the shelf pre-packaged products while I learn. Any recommendations or sources so I can look at and buy? Especially the trace elements?

2. Test kits - it seems Salifert is recommended and may be personal choice. I was originally looking at the Red Sea foundation / pro line since it included the main three has one package. Does it matter? Reading some reviews it seems Salifert is fine. If so I am guessing ALK/KH, Calcium, and Mag to start? Anything else so I can get numbers after my next water change? I'm guessing I would test again at least every other day to try and calculate consumption?

3. After more reading it seems auto dosing units are a must. If so, then I probably need to wait until I have 4 units to dose properly. I can at least start some tests to see what the use pattern is. That seems like a good place to start.

I can't really comment on the DOS system, and I can't comment on EZ either. All I can say is you have to use the calculator for the Full DSR, and at a minimum you need a 4 channel dosing pump for the basics anyway. I wouldn't recommend you start dosing nutrients right away until you see a structural deficiency in your aquarium.

 

[laverda]

Thanks @Skibum and @laverda for the information and replies. I apologize that I didn't do that sooner. This is something that I am still interested in while doing some research on how I can achieve dosing in an automated way. Since I have a Apex unit the DOS is a possibility in which case I could deploy one today and start dosing at least two of the EZ-Products. I am looking to start with the EZ method first to see how I do. Having said that, I do have a few questions if anyone doesn't mind.

1. Ez DSR is made up of 4 products. EZ Buffer, calcium, trace, and carbon. I'm in US/Cali so looking to buy something comparable over the counter unless it is something I can also possibly make(?). If I wanted to start it may be easier to buy off the shelf pre-packaged products while I learn. Any recommendations or sources so I can look at and buy? Especially the trace elements?

2. Test kits - it seems Salifert is recommended and may be personal choice. I was originally looking at the Red Sea foundation / pro line since it included the main three has one package. Does it matter? Reading some reviews it seems Salifert is fine. If so I am guessing ALK/KH, Calcium, and Mag to start? Anything else so I can get numbers after my next water change? I'm guessing I would test again at least every other day to try and calculate consumption?

3. After more reading it seems auto dosing units are a must. If so, then I probably need to wait until I have 4 units to dose properly. I can at least start some tests to see what the use pattern is. That seems like a good place to start.

1. I don’t have any experiencewith the EZ products specifically. Other products available locally can probably be subistituted, although the amounts needed may be different. The Mag is included in one of the 4 components. The ALK, Ca & Mag components can easily be made. I have bulk Calcium Chloride posted for sale in the dry good section. There are several venders selling trace elements. The problem is you usually don’t know how much of exactly what your getting in them. They each have their own formula. My guess is they seguest dosing at levels that will be on the low side to be safe, since there is no test kit for “trace elements”.
2. I personally use Salifert test kits and have been happy with them. The Red Sea kits seam to be decent kits and should be ok. Yes you want ALK/KH, Calcium, and Mag to start with. Then I would get nitrate and phosphate before getting any others. You should be able to test weekly to start, unless something is way off. I only test ALK weekly, as it changes the fastest and is the most critical. If your ALK is ok your Ca and Mag normally will be unless you dosing is off.
3. There is no reason you can’t dose manually. You need to be consistant about it though. Depending on you dosing needs you may want to dose smaller amounts multiple times a day. I dose some of my elements manually as I did not have enough dosing pumps. I have to say some times I forget or just don’t have the time. Missing a day or two does not seem to create any issues. I am only dosing smaller quantities(10ml on my 300g) by hand anyway, so missing a day or two is no big deal.
I hope this helps a little. What size tank do you have? How long have you had it set up?

 

[User1]

Thanks all, appreciate the information. It does help. My questions are more or less a means to the end in that I would like to use the system once my tank is ready. I like the concept behind it and if I can set it up properly then it should be travel or vacation friendly within reason. That is at least my goal.

@laverda The tank is new so not ready for it yet. 210 gallon with 16 gallon sump. Skimmer, heater, apex, and diy led lighting. 150 lbs of dry pukani with 200 or so lbs of sand. Set up in February which the cycle started. Fishless, dose 2ppm ammonia, verified, then added in Dr. Tim's and let it go by testing every 3 days until I saw Ammonia go down. Ammonia reached 0, dosed again 2ppm ammonia, verified it was 0 less than 24 hours. Then tested for Nitrites until they reached 0, then Nitrates was tested. Tank was cycled by 1st or 2nd week of March, left it alone until April. Turned skimmer and lights on, then on the 15th retested and moved over a 40 breeder and fish. Outside of high Nitrates everything else is good. Diatom bloom came and went with coralline algae taking over the rocks. Nothing exciting though since mostly rose bubble tip anemones (8 sadly), green button polyps, Kenya trees, xenia pieces on the back wall that are growing, and my hammers that didn't like the move.

Since this is in progress, and my plan is to set up the system more or less with this method in mind, I wasn't sure if I needed 2 or 4 dosing pumps. Based on the replies 4 is necessary. So that is on my to-buy list. Budget I'll be ordering the test kits though this week, Salifert based on several recommendations and various threads, and will test weekly to set baselines. That made sense. I've only tested Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. Oh - Hanna checker/phosphates. So I needed the others.

That is more or less it. Only other thing is that I plan on buying a sps frag package once I find something reasonable. I don't think 10 pieces based on what I've seen will change much but that is why I will test. Oh - fish are a pair of clowns, pajama cardinals, azure damsel, lawnmower blenny, 4 lyrtail anthias, and a lt. tang. Not much nor do I plan to add anything until the tank matures more.

Image below sort of shows the Coralline algae starting to take hold. It gets darker every day. Edit - forgot Coral Beauty

 

[laverda]

Looks like it is off to a good start. 16 gallons seems like a very small sump. I would not think there would be much reserve for drain back in a long power outage. My old 240 had a 30 gallon sump but it would flood, so I added an additional tank for it to flood into in a long power outage. My return pump was on a large battery back up that would keep it running for 5-6 hours. Some times that was not enough.

 

[User1]

Thanks. Yes, the sump is on the lower side. It may be a bit larger but that is it. When the power is off and the sump water level is correct it will be very close to spilling over. The good news is that under the stand I built a 4" tall side wall that it is sitting in with a heavy duty pond liner in case of spills. I do plan to come up with a larger sump down the road though for the reason you mentioned. I was going to use the 40 breeder I upgraded from for the sump but of course I didn't plan that out properly so bought one. It is a good sump but it means I have to take other precautions. That and I would like to maybe add a refugium to grow out some macro algae for tang food later.

Bigger tanks are nice but what I've personally found is that if not properly planned you tend to miss a lot of simple things. I fall into that category because when I first filled it up with RI/RO water I didn't have enough salt mix I always had enough for 40 gallons, not 210. It is the little things like that I keep tripping over. No one gets hurt so I guess it is ok has long as I am learning.

 

[Skibum]

Thanks. Yes, the sump is on the lower side. It may be a bit larger but that is it. When the power is off and the sump water level is correct it will be very close to spilling over. The good news is that under the stand I built a 4" tall side wall that it is sitting in with a heavy duty pond liner in case of spills. I do plan to come up with a larger sump down the road though for the reason you mentioned. I was going to use the 40 breeder I upgraded from for the sump but of course I didn't plan that out properly so bought one. It is a good sump but it means I have to take other precautions. That and I would like to maybe add a refugium to grow out some macro algae for tang food later.

Bigger tanks are nice but what I've personally found is that if not properly planned you tend to miss a lot of simple things. I fall into that category because when I first filled it up with RI/RO water I didn't have enough salt mix I always had enough for 40 gallons, not 210. It is the little things like that I keep tripping over. No one gets hurt so I guess it is ok has long as I am learning.

Yeah, 16 Gallons is pretty small. I only have a 50 Gallon and my sump is 11 gallons. When the water drains completely from the tank it fills to about 3/4 high. If your power goes out you might have a small disaster on your hands. At any rate, good luck ;-).

 

[janos]

Why this tread stop,this was my favorite reading daily.?

 

[Skibum]

Why this tread stop,this was my favorite reading daily.?

Not sure it's dead, it comes back to life when someone else tries the "method"

 

[glennf]

Why this tread stop,this was my favorite reading daily.?

What do you want to read/know or explained?

 

[janos]

Hi glennf just like to see more tank pics with your method,i always love natural things.Not fancy high tec staff.20 years ago when i ask my LFS how to add nitrate and phosphate to the tank,everybody was thinking this guy stupid or just want to play the big reefer.So today we reach that point where nobody treat me as stupid.Thank you for all the good info,and your honesty .Janos

 

[glennf]

Hi glennf just like to see more tank pics with your method,i always love natural things.Not fancy high tec staff.20 years ago when i ask my LFS how to add nitrate and phosphate to the tank,everybody was thinking this guy stupid or just want to play the big reefer.So today we reach that point where nobody treat me as stupid.Thank you for all the good info,and your honesty .Janos

OK.

If people are interrested, i have plenty to show and tell. I do need some inspiration, otherwise it's like a monologue.

My thoughs on reefkeeping is: less maintenance is more time for fun. That's why is came up with this method, instead of those annoying and time consuming waterchanges, or using very expensive gadgets to do so. I like plain and simple systems, which don't take up all the living space and don't require me to build my house, or live around my tank.

Yeah, once you past the station that corals keep dying on you, because of high nutrients, you are in for the next surprise. They die on you because of to low on nutients[emoji849]

I also love Diy so l tried many builds, to come up that the simplest one is the most effective on.


This is a typical DSR sump for my 550 liters tank
The mainpump is 1200l/h and just about 800l/h netto capacity

 

[janos]

Thank you glennf nice setup,and simple.

 

[User1]

It is always interesting to see other ways of doing things and to be honest simple is good. Looking at your sump is it safe to assume you are doing 3 or 4 things? EZ Carbon, Calcium, and Trace? I saw another container but it was large so assumed that may be top off. I know above when I was asking about it 4 channel dosing pumps are required. What is the 4th? Oh - going back and re-reading Buffer. I don't know what that is or does, sorry.

But again on the simplistic front we are talking lights, water circulation, over flow to sump, sump, skimmer, return pump. I think that is also all I see in that area. Again, I like that style. Going to go out on a limb and say it doesn't matter the type of lights other than meeting coral and/or fish requirements? Substrate, sand, live rock, etc - the basics are there. What I mean is there is no requirement of a refugium, UV, etc. Maturing of the tank is obvious along with measurements for initial trending to show use vs. what to enter in calculator, and off you go?

Personally speaking this is something that I'm going to try if/when my tank is more mature. I don't believe it is ready yet. It has the lights, skimmer, return, etc. but I am not seeing consumption of Calcium, Magnesium, or Alk. It seems to be holding steady while I work on reducing nitrates and phosphates. Nitrate 10 - 20 (red sea), Cal 415 (Salifert), Mag 1300 (Salifert), Alk 9 (Hanna), Phosphate 0.00 (Hanna 713 model - so probably .04). Hopefully this is something I'll be able to use in a couple months and really looking forward to trying it in a mixed reef.

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