The Gold Standard for Aquarium Heating System Redundancy

[naterealbig]

I know this gets talked about a lot, but there are several methodologies that get recommended and are put into practice. I would like to work out the "gold standard" in a recipe (for you engineers: Process Flow Chart) format. It may be important to note that I did not not title the thread "heater redundancy", as my hypothesis is that for all intents and purposes, a redundant heating system is not simply just a matter of selecting a "good" heater.

Why not start the discussion here? And before you make a post on "what I do that has worked", put some thought into any preceding notes/recommendations/discussion. My wish is that we can take a scientific approach, and work together to narrow down a set of best-practices to select and install your equipment for your heating system.

Before we get into the discussion - I would first like to establish deliverables from this brainstorm. My suggestion is below; please add your thoughts on what our finished product should look like.

Delieverables:

1. Establishing the Need for a Gold Standard Process Flow
a) I would venture to guess that as a common "life support system component", a heating system can easily become a failure point for an aquarium system. I believe that the life we keep requires a relatively narrow band within which it can survive. Because of this, and assuming that ambient temperature both deviates from this band, and also has a marked impact to the aquarium system temperature, a heating system is generally necessary. I am open to the idea that I am incorrect here, and in this case would be open to consider that it may not be worth the time and effort to put into this subject.

2. Process Flow Chart Outlining the Following Steps:
a) Decision to Implement Heating System
i) I imagine in some (even if perhaps in very few) instances, a heating system is a requirement. Because I don't believe that 100% of aquarium systems require one, this could be an important place to start in the process.
b) Deciding Heating System Method To Use
i) I am open to the idea that there may be more than one way to set up a heating system based on different factors, such as: mix/max ambient temperature, effect of ambient temperature on aquarium, whether you have an existing aquarium controller, worst-case scenarios such has home heating failure, heater failure, power failure, etc.
c) Heater & Ancillary Equipment Selection
i) Perhaps discussing both "premium" and "budget" options may be of value here....
d) Heater & Ancillary Equipment Installation and Setup

I hope you will let me know your thoughts!

Be chatting....

 

[Mikeltee]

Hmm no need for all this scientific reasoning. Buy 2 heaters 1 big and 1 small. Dial the big one up to 79 and the little one to 78 degrees PRECISELY (now is the time for your scientific background). Hook the big one up to your apex and have it kick on at 78.1. If your large one fails or the power is out the little one will kick on and this is the only time it will kick on. Now your tank will not go below 78.0 degrees. Adjust to your favorite flavor of temp. Make sure you buy a UPS large enough to handle your heater which is why I stated to get the smallest heater that you can effectively use. I also recommend a 2000 watt generator for anyone that has a saltwater system. I've had one for 10 years and never used it once but I sure do sleep better at night.

 

[ca1ore]

Seems to me, anecdotally at least, that heater failure is the most common source of major tank problems; thus putting thought into the most reliable and ‘foolproof’ approach is wise.

I live in the Northeast and keep my house at 67 so heating is necessary. I do run an acrylic tank so not as much wattage required as when I had glass.

My approach hasn’t changed much over the last decade. I work out the peak wattage required for my tank (mostly based on ‘instinct’), divide that number by two and run three heaters of that wattage. That way no single off failure will materially cool the tank and no single on failure can cook it.

Last year, I did explore using a large heat exchanger connected to my hot water heater but the vendor proved so unreliable that a wrote it off as a life lesson and never used it. Decided to stick with a trio of EBJ 300 watters. I do keep a backup 500 watt finnex on a ranco controller just in case.

 

[naterealbig]

Hmm no need for all this scientific reasoning.

Why not? I might be bold enough to suggest that heater failure in the on position could be one of the most common reasons for complete tank failures. Not really a big deal if you have only spent $20 (and assuming you do not value the life within), but perhaps a larger concern with those who have invested $20k or more into their systems (and those that treat their animals as pets they truly care for...

Buy 2 heaters 1 big and 1 small.

Please define "big" and "small".

Dial the big one up to 79 and the little one to 78 degrees PRECISELY (now is the time for your scientific background).

What about those who are running temperate systems? I know someone who has a lobster (H. americanus) tank. Should I give them this advice?

Hook the big one up to your apex and have it kick on at 78.1.

What if I don't have an Apex?

If your large one fails or the power is out the little one will kick on and this is the only time it will kick on. Now your tank will not go below 78.0 degrees.

What if the "small" heater does not transfer enough heat to keep my tank at 78.0 degrees?

Adjust to your favorite flavor of temp. Make sure you buy a UPS large enough to handle your heater which is why I stated to get the smallest heater that you can effectively use.

But wait, you said to get one "big" one and one "small" one.....? Which UPS should I buy? How do I select my UPS?

I also recommend a 2000 watt generator for anyone that has a saltwater system. I've had one for 10 years and never used it once but I sure do sleep better at night.

My tank can use up to 22 amps at any given time.... W=E*I > W = 120*22 = 2640W.... Is the 2000 watt generator enough? What does purchasing a generator have to do with heater failure if it fails in the "on" position? For that matter, what if my sump level lowers and the Apex and heater are out of the water and my ambient room temperature is 68 degrees F?

 

[Mikeltee]

It's great living in the northeast regarding your tank. Somehow my heater was knocked back to 73 degrees. The other day I opened up the windows and it got about 65 in the house. My apex alarm went off warning me that the tank was at 77. I bet that heater hasn't kicked on in well over a year as that was the last time I was in my overflow. Winter or summer my HVAC is set to 69 and my tank fluctuates 1 degree on it's own with no mechanical intervention at all.

 

[naterealbig]

My approach hasn’t changed much over the last decade. I work out the peak wattage required for my tank (mostly based on ‘instinct’), divide that number by two and run three heaters of that wattage. That way no single off failure will materially cool the tank and no single on failure can cook it.

I wonder if there is an easy way to estimate this value? I know heat transfer is an incredibly complex subject... In fact, understanding this amount might be a key input to what we all are trying to achieve with regards to redundancy - especially when considering a heater failing in the "on" position.

For instance, I have 2 x 300 watt Finnex Titanium heaters on my aquarium.... I truly have no idea what a single heater failure in the "on" position would result in. How did you put together your estimate?

Last year, I did explore using a large heat exchanger connected to my hot water heater but the vendor proved so unreliable that a wrote it off as a life lesson and never used it. Decide to stick with a trio of EBJ 300 waters. I do keep a backup 500 watt finnex on a ranco controller just in case.

Ugh! Something custom, or something designed specifically for our application?

Thank you for the thoughtful reply....

 

[ca1ore]

I wonder if there is an easy way to estimate this value? I know heat transfer is an incredibly complex subject... In fact, understanding this amount might be a key input to what we all are trying to achieve with regards to redundancy - especially when considering a heater failing in the "on" position.

For instance, I have 2 x 300 watt Finnex Titanium heaters on my aquarium.... I truly have no idea what a single heater failure in the "on" position would result in. How did you put together your estimate?

At the risk of seeming like a complete geek .....

I test ran my current tank in my garage for a few weeks (in the Fall when the garage temps were round 67-8 degrees) and experimented with one, two and then three 300 watt heaters. Set them to be always on. With one tank gradually lost temperature; with three it gradually gained. So maybe a bit more than instinct, some trial and error. Since I run all three on my apex, I can also track when each gets energized and it’s rare that all three are on at the same time.

Imagine one could model a system and arrive at a better number ... volume versus surface area, thermal properties of tank material, ambient temperate, etc. Seems like a lot of effort though lol.

 

[naterealbig]

At the risk of seeming like a complete geek .....

I test ran my current tank in my garage for a few weeks (in the Fall when the garage temps were round 67-8 degrees) and experimented with one, two and then three 300 watt heaters. Set them to be always on. With one tank gradually lost temperature; with three it gradually gained. So maybe a bit more than instinct, some trial and error. Since I run all three on my apex, I can also track when each gets energized and it’s rare that all three are on at the same time.

Imagine one could model a system and arrive at a better number ... volume versus surface area, thermal properties of tank material, ambient temperate, etc. Seems like a lot of effort though lol.

I love this! What a great data point. I agree - potentially a lot of work, but even a "gross" estimate would probably be better than what I am (and what I imagine most are) doing - which is completely guessing....

You said you had some backups on Rancos? My initial thought was so run at least 2 heaters on Ranco controllers though a second controller (Apex, built-in thermostat, Rainbird, etc) - but I wanted to cover all the bases - especially the most basic assumptions which I think most folks take for granted.... I think understanding the logic is most important. With a better foundation, more people can make better decisions, which will result in more long-time success stories.

Cheers!

 

[rushbattle]

Responding to heat requirement testing discussion. If you cannot do testing that simulates the tank’s real situation, it seems like less is more. I’d far rather have the tank a few degrees low unexpectedly in the winter than overheating and killing everything. The approach I take is with a single ranco, but multiple heating elements on the outputs, of which there are two stages. I add and remove 100-300w elements to just barely be able to maintain temp based on real need with both stages, and remove heat if I notice the first stage heat off more than once, usually in the spring. The size of the elements is obviously relative to tank size, if I had a 120 gallon tank I’d be working with 50w elements. Smaller than 75 gallons I’d have to find 25w titanium elements. Not sure if that’s a readily available product.

edit: I have a separate temp monitor that alerts to temp anomalies also.

 

[Mikeltee]

Why not? I might be bold enough to suggest that heater failure in the on position could be one of the most common reasons for complete tank failures. Not really a big deal if you have only spent $20 (and assuming you do not value the life within), but perhaps a larger concern with those who have invested $20k or more into their systems (and those that treat their animals as pets they truly care for...

Mikeltee said:
Buy 2 heaters 1 big and 1 small.

Please define "big" and "small".


Big and small are relative to your size of tank. Big is what you normally use. Small is what the smallest you can get by with. I already mentioned this as well as buying an appropriate UPS for the size of heater.

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Mikeltee said:
Dial the big one up to 79 and the little one to 78 degrees PRECISELY (now is the time for your scientific background).

What about those who are running temperate systems? I know someone who has a lobster (H. americanus) tank. Should I give them this advice?

I dont know what a lobster tank has to do with setting temperature but I mentioned that you can adjust these parameters to whatever temperature you run. If you need precise fluctuating temperatures at specific times of the day than dont house lobsters. Leave them in the sea or on your dinner table.

-------------------------------------------

Mikeltee said:
Hook the big one up to your apex and have it kick on at 78.1.

What if I don't have an Apex?

If you dont have an apex than dont worry about it as long as the temp is set precisely on the device it will kick on. You may get a little more action out of your smaller one if your main one allows it to dip that low. I assumed everyone runs an Apex. If said subject doesnt have one than get one. If they cant afford it than get a Betta Bowl and call it a day.

-------------------------------------------

Mikeltee said:
If your large one fails or the power is out the little one will kick on and this is the only time it will kick on. Now your tank will not go below 78.0 degrees.

What if the "small" heater does not transfer enough heat to keep my tank at 78.0 degrees?
Again... this was mentioned that small means the smallest one you can get by with.

Mikeltee said:
Adjust to your favorite flavor of temp. Make sure you buy a UPS large enough to handle your heater which is why I stated to get the smallest heater that you can effectively use.

But wait, you said to get one "big" one and one "small" one.....? Which UPS should I buy? How do I select my UPS?

This was already discussed and if the subject cant figure out how to appropriately buy a UPS for a device than they have no business in this hobby!


-------------------------------------------

Mikeltee said:
I also recommend a 2000 watt generator for anyone that has a saltwater system. I've had one for 10 years and never used it once but I sure do sleep better at night.

My tank can use up to 22 amps at any given time.... W=E*I > W = 120*22 = 2640W.... Is the 2000 watt generator enough? What does purchasing a generator have to do with heater failure if it fails in the "on" position? For that matter, what if my sump level lowers and the Apex and heater are out of the water and my ambient room temperature is 68 degrees F?

What are you running Sea World with that many watts? You only need to have your heater and powerheads on in a power outage. If your heater fails in the on position you have a backup which is the sole purpose of the backup. I apologize for not spelling that out for you... oh wait I did. See my OP. If they both fail get a third. Is this some sort of recursive exercise? Place your heaters in your overflow to avoid a sump running dry and a sump will do you no good if you are on generator power as stated above anyways. If your overflow isnt big enough than put it directly in your tank. With your heater on a UPS, and your powerheads on a backup battery which they already should be, you will have ample time to get home and start up your generator. If subject needs automatic switching to a generator upon power failure, than as an electrician I will gladly come by and wire this up for $2500. I do not suggest anyone open their panels for their take on "The Gold Standard of Heating Redundancy".

 

[Copingwithpods]

The problem with this scientific approach is it won't be applicable to most peoples tanks, realistically.

The gold standard has been have good heating cooling system and have a backup. The more complex your system the more complex your primary and secondary will be.

Beyond that there is no other standard we can apply that both the 5g Pico reef guy and the 2000g dream tank guy can share, beyond have a system and a back up and Taylor that to your tank, parameters, budget, space, location, dedication and will.

I get what you're trying to do but people's needs and the limitations inherent are so vast that 1 standard cannot blanket them all.

Same reason there isn't a gold standard for parameters, just guide lines as the needs of refers differ so much. Just like you stated, will multiple heaters benefit lobster guy? Probably not, nor would it benefit people in Arizona or Texas or Florida, alot of whom don't even own a heater.

In short I'm a bit confused by this thread and it's objective. Is it to find the most reliable fool proof error proof life proof system for heating and cooling?

 

[naterealbig]

Big and small are relative to your size of tank. Big is what you normally use. Small is what the smallest you can get by with. I already mentioned this as well as buying an appropriate UPS for the size of heater.

You are proving my point here. Your answer is vague, just like most of the answers and guidance with regards to heating systems in this hobby. You are unable to define what a small and large heater is. Right now, even with over 25 years in the hobby, I can't do it.... Again - what is an appropriate size UPS?

Hence the reason for a more scientific approach.... Perhaps, by starting with definition.

I dont know what a lobster tank has to do with setting temperature but I mentioned that you can adjust these parameters to whatever temperature you run. If you need precise fluctuating temperatures at specific times of the day than dont house lobsters. Leave them in the sea or on your dinner table.

It has a lot to do with the discussion... Starting with understanding your tank requirements. Lobsters don't need "precise fluctuating" temperatures - they need a tank temp that represents their natural environment. In the instance of this system - unless your ambient air temperature is below the freezing point of saltwater, then a heater isn't even necessary. Which is one of the first points of the discussion I am trying to initiate...

If you dont have an apex than dont worry about it as long as the temp is set precisely on the device it will kick on.

Are you sure? I have an Eheim Jager heater that is 15 degrees off from it's setpoint. This is where the "equipment selection" comes into play. Hopefully part of this discussion includes a list of equipment that is most reliable "out of the box".

You may get a little more action out of your smaller one if your main one allows it to dip that low. I assumed everyone runs an Apex.

This would be an unfortunate assumption.

If said subject doesnt have one than get one. If they cant afford it than get a Betta Bowl and call it a day.

Again, you are proving my point. Your comment equates to "if the hobbyist can't afford a $600 piece of equipment - find another hobby". I don't believe this is fair, or true, and again is another point I am trying to make. If we can fine-tune the method, then perhaps there are areas where the hobbyist can save a little on equipment.

Again... this was mentioned that small means the smallest one you can get by with.

How does the hobbyist know what "the smallest one you can get by with" mean? How did you figure this out for yourself?

This was already discussed and if the subject cant figure out how to appropriately buy a UPS for a device than they have no business in this hobby!

No, this wasn't discussed at all, as far as I can read in your post. Can you tell me in detail how you decided on your UPS device?

What are you running Sea World with that many watts?

No, I am not. And my power consumption is relatively small compared to some of the larger systems on this forum.

You only need to have your heater and powerheads on in a power outage.

I live in Florida, so no, a heater is not a consideration with regards to life support systems during a power outage in my instance. And probably many other's.

If your heater fails in the on position you have a backup which is the sole purpose of the backup. I apologize for not spelling that out for you... oh wait I did. See my OP. If they both fail get a third. Is this some sort of recursive exercise? Place your heaters in your overflow to avoid a sump running dry and a sump will do you no good if you are on generator power as stated above anyways.

Heaters in your overflow box are ineffective if your return pumps are not working (as in the event of a power outage). Also, my overflow level can fluctuate - and much more quickly than my sump level does.

If your overflow isnt big enough than put it directly in your tank.

Using your logic, I would also connect my chiller (if I used one), calcium reactor, skimmer, and any other necessary equipment in the display. This seems unreasonable, but for the sake of redundancy, perhaps it is worth it. Definitely something to note.

With your heater on a UPS, and your powerheads on a backup battery which they already should be, you will have ample time to get home and start up your generator.

I live in Tampa and am currently in Texas for 2 weeks for training. It would take me about 15 hours to get home, assuming I was able to leave immediately, drove straight through, didn't stop for gas or food, and a rental car was readily available. Maybe a UPS would last with the bare minimum life support equipment running. Or maybe not. Again, the cross-my-fingers is not good enough (for me).

If subject needs automatic switching to a generator upon power failure, than as an electrician I will gladly come by and wire this up for $2500. I do not suggest anyone open their panels for their take on "The Gold Standard of Heating Redundancy".

Great option for those that can afford it.

 

[naterealbig]

The problem with this scientific approach is it won't be applicable to most peoples tanks, realistically.

As an engineer I would argue that the truth is the exact opposite of your statement. If applied correctly, there could be a method/system/process that would apply to anyone's aquarium. That is the beauty of science - it is great for problem solving....

The gold standard has been have good heating cooling system and have a backup. The more complex your system the more complex your primary and secondary will be.

Please define "good heating and cooling system". Again, with the application of the right tools and knowledge, there is opportunity to avoid complexity - with the correct method and equipment.

Beyond that there is no other standard we can apply that both the 5g Pico reef guy and the 2000g dream tank guy can share, beyond have a system and a back up and Taylor that to your tank, parameters, budget, space, location, dedication and will.

I agree - I don't think there is a single "thing" that will apply to all systems. Perhaps with the correct thought process, understanding of livestock needs, and considering the most common and most impactful scenarios we create a decision matrix that can help guide our choices. Scientifically.

I get what you're trying to do but people's needs and the limitations inherent are so vast that 1 standard cannot blanket them all.

I agree. Again, I am not looking for a standard solution necessarily, but perhaps a standard process to get us to the solution.

In short I'm a bit confused by this thread and it's objective. Is it to find the most reliable fool proof error proof life proof system for heating and cooling?

Yes, exactly, but limited to heating for now. Mostly because I believe there are many more catastrophic events related to heating malfunctioning than cooling malfunctioning (at least as it applies to aquarium-specific equipment).

 

[Copingwithpods]

IMHO you are expecting very exact answers to very vague questions.

 

[naterealbig]

Wh

IMHO you are expecting very exact answers to very vague questions.

Which of my questions is vague?

In my original post, the only question I asked is below:

"Why not start the discussion here?"

Problems are not solved by simply saying "the problem cannot be solved". I expect nothing, except thoughtful input from experienced hobbyists who are interested in what I feel is an engaging, and relevant topic. If you are not this person, it's no problem. I will continue to try to foster the dialogue, and add my input as it can be applied.

 

[Copingwithpods]

Yes, exactly, but limited to heating for now. Mostly because I believe there are many more catastrophic events related to heating malfunctioning than cooling malfunctioning (at least as it applies to aquarium-specific equipment).

The simple answer then is have an appropriate heater per tank size and an appropriate back up. Simple as that. Without knowing the location geographically of the tank, the size, the house temperature, desired temperature and budget no other recommendations can be made.

 

[naterealbig]

The simple answer then is have an appropriate heater per tank size and an appropriate back up. Simple as that. Without knowing the location geographically of the tank, the size, the house temperature, desired temperature and budget no other recommendations can be made.

Thank you, and I disagree. Even without considering these things you mention, I believe there should be a way to set up logical redundancy within a system, which could potentially eliminate problems, and reduce the probability of a catastrophic event.

 

[Copingwithpods]

Thank you, and I disagree. Even without considering these things you mention, I believe there should be a way to set up logical redundancy within a system, which could potentially eliminate problems, and reduce the probability of a catastrophic event.

There is one which alot of people implement, running a heater with a thermostat built in set at 79 (example) hooked up to a dedicated controller set to 78 and having a second heater set to 77. If the heater gets stuck on the controller will shut it off, if the controller gets stuck on the heater will shut itself off, if both die the secondary heater will turn on. It's simple and affordable. In 99% of cases anything more than this is overkill and not needed. This is a very acceptable level of redundancy with people with bigger tanks and higher budgets having temperature text alerts and so on.

 

[naterealbig]

There is one which alot of people implement, running a heater with a thermostat built in set at 79 (example) hooked up to a dedicated controller set to 78 and having a second heater set to 77. If the heater gets stuck on the controller will shut it off, if the controller gets stuck on the heater will shut itself off, if both die the secondary heater will turn on. It's simple and affordable. In 99% of cases anything more than this is overkill and not needed. This is a very acceptable level of redundancy with people with bigger tanks and higher budgets having temperature text alerts and so on.

I love this. In my instance, I have 2 Finnex heaters (let's assume with built-in thermostat/controller) connected to my Apex. I wonder if we could dig a step further (maybe to cover some of that 1% gap), and consider the event where the Apex fails (let's say off for instance, so no power to either heater). For those where a single failure could turn off all heating capability, would there be a benefit having each heater (w/ built in controller) connect to two separate backup/redundant controllers? In my example, perhaps one heater connected to my Apex, and another heater connected to an Inkbird (or Ranco, etc) that is plugged into an outlet that is not controlled by the Apex?

To be transparent, some of the motivation here is selfish... I "feel" like my system despite the loads of money I have dumped into it, could be more redundant. It would be absolutely devastating to lose my pets (and $$) in an event I could have prevented. For this reason, I am placing a specific focus on redundancy for ALL of my life support systems... Including return pumps, skimmer(s) (in the event one overflows, or simply stops working), calcium reactor, etc. I know we cannot cover every single scenario, but I would like to explore, at the very least, the possibility of reviewing the current "accepted practice" to get us a little closer to the 20 year tank, versus the 20 month tank.

 

[Copingwithpods]

I love this. In my instance, I have 2 Finnex heaters (let's assume with built-in thermostat/controller) connected to my Apex. I wonder if we could dig a step further (maybe to cover some of that 1% gap), and consider the event where the Apex fails (let's say off for instance, so no power to either heater). For those where a single failure could turn off all heating capability, would there be a benefit having each heater (w/ built in controller) connect to two separate backup/redundant controllers? In my example, perhaps one heater connected to my Apex, and another heater connected to an Inkbird (or Ranco, etc) that is plugged into an outlet that is not controlled by the Apex?

You can follow the redundancy rabbit hole all the way down to China, have back ups and back ups for your backs up and ups and generators or solar panels and so on. None of these are really needed if the system in place is well maintained.

Unless you are keeping a goblin shark or something extremely exotic the 3 layers of redundancy I mentioned are enough.

"I am open to the idea that I am incorrect here, and in this case would be open to consider that it may not be worth the time and effort to put into this subject"

This, it simply isn't worth the effort beyond having simple effective back ups. You can drive yourself mad thinking about this stuff, gfci tripping, power outages, heaters exploding, heaters breaking the sump glass, temperature controller failing, wifi failing not getting alerts and so on.