The great debate on nitrates and phosphates

[RichReef]

What’s ATS?

Algae Turf Scrubber

 

[jurgenph]

Lol, G D it! I knew that- I even put it in my apex 10 minutes ago as KNO3,

Thanks for the TSP. Makes sense. I remember looking for it locally but only finding the pink cleaner TSP in HD/Lowe’s. Should have checked amazon

Got a handy dosing calculator or do I have to do it old school?

i don't.

not sure how i came up with the ratio, but that one small bottle will probably last me a lifetime.
i used one of Randy's posts in the chemistry forum as a guide, it's like 1 gram to x ml of rodi, dose one or two drops.
and even that is pretty potent especially if you have a nano tank

my current tank doesn't have a low PO4 problem (yet), so i haven't dosed it in a long time.

my NaNO3 solution is fully saturated. dissolve as much of it in RODI as will go into solution at room temperature.
i dose about 5 to 10 drops per week in a 5 or 10 gallon tank.
over time this may get reduced as things dirty up.


J.

 

[Mark Gray]

This is sort of an interesting subject to me. Back many years ago all my tanks had nitrate off the scale no fish problems ever. I don't know what the phosphate readings were. this was all decades ago. Not to the present I started a 90 everything was looking good got SPS growth my fuge dropped my nitrate to 0 well that's when everything went down hill. I got Dino's and they killed everything for a long time. I have just now have thing back under control, a year later. I now have my NO3 at around 50 and PO4 at at least 2. I have only added a little LPS no SPS yet but the LPS is doing great SPS to come soon.

 

[ZoWhat]

I always thought the "ultimate goal" was to achieve:
~2ppm NO3
~.03ppm PO4

That having big fat 0's for NO3 and PO4 was actually unhealthy and an irritant to corals
.

 

[User]

I always thought the "ultimate goal" was to achieve:
~2ppm NO3
~.03ppm PO4

That having big fat 0's for NO3 and PO4 was actually unhealthy and an irritant to corals
.

FUnny how this thinking has changed- I was recently advised that 15-20 ppm NO3 and between 0.1-0.2 ppm PO4 was a reasonable upper level, but to aim for 5ppm NO3 and 0.15ppm PO4

Interestingly, that’s a 33:1 redfield ratio (N: P)

BUt yeah- 0/0 is bad news.

 

[UCF Alum]

ULNS= dead SPS for me

Fast forward 6 months. No3 is 35 and Po4 is .1
SPS is encrusting like mad and colors are great.

 

[rock_lobster]

No idea!

 

[Cheche]

In my opinion the ulns is to avoid algae I had my tank as ulns and all my corals look bad ( NO ALGAE !!!lol) I think is good for fish only tanks for corals you need nutrients.. and as of today I have been adding ( SPECTRACIDE STUMP REMOVER) yes Ik sound crazy but in one week I have been doing this all my corals stop been pale and got a lot but a lot of color back . Another thing I noticed they do grow faster even tho I keep my alk at 8.6 you want to control your algae problems do wc on schedule.. and you can keep nitrate up and phosphate.. I will never go back to 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate ( NEVER LOL ) I love to look at my tank now before I didn’t want anyone to see it . Bcoz I talk big game and my tank look like I didn’t know anything... good luck and I hope this help anyone who read this .. I post a pic of my nitrate now between 10ppm and the other one is lol dark that was 20ppm and is doing beautiful

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Increasing levels of often measured nutrients as nitrate and or phosphate are often the messenger for limited availability of other essential building materials . And in most cases the messengers are blamed. Correcting the increasing levels without solving the cause my increase an existing problem, depending of the methods used to battle the messengers.
Skimmers remove part of the building materials constantly but very selective. They are never blamed.
Nutrients as phosphate and nitrate are not killers, they are not an emergency. Exempt when there is not enough of it.
Nitrate is safely stored usable nitrogen.
Recent research of many different sources has shown that increased availability of phosphorus does increase calcification which is in contradiction with what is believed by most reefers and most guidelines. The effect of nitrogen on symbiodinium depends of the nitrogen source used, provided within the coral holobiont, which is completely different of what is measured in the water column although it will influence the composition of the holobiont.
Also the cause of bleaching in an aquarium may be brought back to a nutrient issue if light and temp is ok, but also here in most cases nitrate and or phosphate are always blamed. High nitrogen availability may cause bleaching but only when high growth rates of symbodinium ( warmer water?) are suddenly interrupted by limited supply of essential building materials, mostly phosphorus during lab tests. It is best to keep the availability in a positive balance.

Why nitrate and or phosphate may build up in a well lit aquarium and is not used by photo-autotrops not needing an organic carbon source and who have access to an unlimited energy source?

My opinion one must stop always to blame nitrate and or phosphate for anything what is going wrong. In most cases the real reason is elsewhere.

 

[Elegance Coral]

IMHO
This subject gets all out of whack because people put to much emphasis on the numbers they get from test kits, and not enough on what the life in the tank is telling us. Our tests only give us an idea of what's going on with one small aspect of the N and P cycles in our system. They don't give us a total N and P reading. They don't even tell us how much inorganic N and P our systems produce. Our tests only give us an idea of the surplus, or the amount of inorganic N and P that builds up, in our systems. There's a great deal more going on than that. This is why we see tanks that seem to flourish with vastly different readings, and tanks that fail with vastly different readings.
We can have two different systems with the same high PO4 level. One system my flourish, and the other may crash. This is obviously due to the fact that other factors or determining the outcome. Not the PO4 level.

Again, IMHO

Understanding "bio markers" is much more important than the numbers we get from PO4 and NO3 test kits. Bio markers can tell us things that test kits simply can not. One real simple and obvious bio marker is algae growth. If you're growing algae any where in the system, you know, for a fact, that the system is producing enough inorganic N and P to support that growth. Period. There's no other way around it. The readings from NO3 and PO4 test kits are irrelevant. There's no test kit that can tell us the amount of inorganic N and P our systems produce, but mother nature can give us an idea, based on the amount of algae the system grows. She never lies. Other bio markers can be the color, health, and growth rate of corals, and the population of organisms like pods, worms, sponges, feather dusters.................

Corals need N and P just as all other life on this planet does. That does not mean that they need inorganic N and P floating around in the water where they live. Most corals have multiple methods for obtaining the N and P they need, but they all require feeding, or digestion. Not absorption of inorganic N and P from the water. Yes, they can indirectly benefit from inorganic N and P in the water were they live, by digesting their own zooxanthellae, and/or consuming microbes that live in mucus on their surface.

The coral animal has three major souses for obtaining N and P directly. All three are from organic sources. Digesting zooxanthellae, feeding on organic particles including microbes in their mucus, and capturing prey including organic particles.

They benefit indirectly by digesting their own zooxanthellae after the zooxanthellae have taken up inorganic N and P from the water, and they do the same with microbes that live on their surface in mucus. However, the zooxanthellae and the microbes don't require inorganics in the water either. They can both be supported through the inorganic N and P produced by a well fed host. In fact, the coral will not digest its zooxanthellae if it is well fed, and only resorts to digestion of its own zooxanthellae when food is in short supply.

So, when people maintain X amount of N and P in the water, and see an improvement, they're indirectly making up for a lack of food for the host animal. When we come to the conclusion that a coral is starving, (pale color and slow growth) we often go straight to raising N and P, when that is not our only option, and IMHO, not the best option. The goal to help any starving animal is to provide more food. Through elevating N and P, we encourage more rapid growth of zooxanthellae and microbes, which increases the availability of food for the coral host. We could simply increase food directly. In doing so we could avoid increasing N and P, and all the testing, monitoring, measuring, and dosing involved.

Again JMHO
Peace
EC

 

[BeejReef]

IMHO
This subject gets all out of whack because people put to much emphasis on the numbers they get from test kits, and not enough on what the life in the tank is telling us. Our tests only give us an idea of what's going on with one small aspect of the N and P cycles in our system. They don't give us a total N and P reading. They don't even tell us how much inorganic N and P our systems produce. Our tests only give us an idea of the surplus, or the amount of inorganic N and P that builds up, in our systems. There's a great deal more going on than that. This is why we see tanks that seem to flourish with vastly different readings, and tanks that fail with vastly different readings.
We can have two different systems with the same high PO4 level. One system my flourish, and the other may crash. This is obviously due to the fact that other factors or determining the outcome. Not the PO4 level.

Again, IMHO

Understanding "bio markers" is much more important than the numbers we get from PO4 and NO3 test kits. Bio markers can tell us things that test kits simply can not. One real simple and obvious bio marker is algae growth. If you're growing algae any where in the system, you know, for a fact, that the system is producing enough inorganic N and P to support that growth. Period. There's no other way around it. The readings from NO3 and PO4 test kits are irrelevant. There's no test kit that can tell us the amount of inorganic N and P our systems produce, but mother nature can give us an idea, based on the amount of algae the system grows. She never lies. Other bio markers can be the color, health, and growth rate of corals, and the population of organisms like pods, worms, sponges, feather dusters.................

Corals need N and P just as all other life on this planet does. That does not mean that they need inorganic N and P floating around in the water where they live. Most corals have multiple methods for obtaining the N and P they need, but they all require feeding, or digestion. Not absorption of inorganic N and P from the water. Yes, they can indirectly benefit from inorganic N and P in the water were they live, by digesting their own zooxanthellae, and/or consuming microbes that live in mucus on their surface.

The coral animal has three major souses for obtaining N and P directly. All three are from organic sources. Digesting zooxanthellae, feeding on organic particles including microbes in their mucus, and capturing prey including organic particles.

They benefit indirectly by digesting their own zooxanthellae after the zooxanthellae have taken up inorganic N and P from the water, and they do the same with microbes that live on their surface in mucus. However, the zooxanthellae and the microbes don't require inorganics in the water either. They can both be supported through the inorganic N and P produced by a well fed host. In fact, the coral will not digest its zooxanthellae if it is well fed, and only resorts to digestion of its own zooxanthellae when food is in short supply.

So, when people maintain X amount of N and P in the water, and see an improvement, they're indirectly making up for a lack of food for the host animal. When we come to the conclusion that a coral is starving, (pale color and slow growth) we often go straight to raising N and P, when that is not our only option, and IMHO, not the best option. The goal to help any starving animal is to provide more food. Through elevating N and P, we encourage more rapid growth of zooxanthellae and microbes, which increases the availability of food for the coral host. We could simply increase food directly. In doing so we could avoid increasing N and P, and all the testing, monitoring, measuring, and dosing involved.

Again JMHO
Peace
EC

That's one of the most interesting explanations I've read.

My vote would be feed your fish and corals more than enough to be sure that they're fat and happy.

If this results in rising N or P, take steps to control it, but don't worry about going near zero.

Then again, I've neen fortunate to have never had a serious algae battle.

I find some logic in some of the "dated" BRS advise to run very low the first 3 or 4 months on a new tank to prevent algae from establishing a major niche.

 

[User]

That's one of the most interesting explanations I've read.

My vote would be feed your fish and corals more than enough to be sure that they're fat and happy.

If this results in rising N or P, take steps to control it, but don't worry about going near zero.

Then again, I've neen fortunate to have never had a serious algae battle.

I find some logic in some of the "dated" BRS advise to run very low the first 3 or 4 months on a new tank to prevent algae from establishing a major niche.

Running ULNS in the first few months is a recipe for a Chrysophytes battle that could result in a stalled tank. I followed the brs advice to keep low nutrient to avoid GHA and I ended up with something far more insidious.

You want to promote ‘good’ algae growth in this early phase to prevent colonization with nasty hard to remove stuff like Chrysophytes. In this context, good means stuff like GHA or Cyanobacteria. I would happily trade what I have now, 1 year in, for a bad GHA outbreak at month 3 due to elevated N and P. At least tangs would eat it. And a dr time waste away would get rid of Cyanobacteria. Then I could adjust nutrient levels down and stabilize

I have a tank full of Chrysophytes that I can’t etadicate. I’m literally in the process of dosing N and P to 10/0.2 in order to promote GHA and cyano. I’m having to add 15ppm nitrate per week in order to stop it dropping to zero. The only algae I have in my tank is Chrysophytes. I WANT GHA! They will crowd out and compete with the Chrysophytes, s d then I can final get my tank rolling again

 

[Belgian Anthias]

They benefit indirectly by digesting their own zooxanthellae after the zooxanthellae have taken up inorganic N and P from the water, and they do the same with microbes that live on their surface in mucus. However, the zooxanthellae and the microbes don't require inorganics in the water either. They can both be supported through the inorganic N and P produced by a well fed host. In fact, the coral will not digest its zooxanthellae if it is well fed, and only resorts to digestion of its own zooxanthellae when food is in short supply.



Again JMHO
Peace
EC

Do you have references to back up this statement?
During my research about the coral holobiont and symbodinium I could not find one paper showing corals will digest its symbodinium. The symbodinium may deliver nutrients to the holobiont and coral as does the coral by excrements to maintain the holobiont. As far as I know symbodinium are not digested as it was food . In nature corals use organic and anorganic P and N mainly retrieved from its holobiont in which the availability of N and P is completely different from what will be measured in the water column.

 

[Cheche]

IMHO
This subject gets all out of whack because people put to much emphasis on the numbers they get from test kits, and not enough on what the life in the tank is telling us. Our tests only give us an idea of what's going on with one small aspect of the N and P cycles in our system. They don't give us a total N and P reading. They don't even tell us how much inorganic N and P our systems produce. Our tests only give us an idea of the surplus, or the amount of inorganic N and P that builds up, in our systems. There's a great deal more going on than that. This is why we see tanks that seem to flourish with vastly different readings, and tanks that fail with vastly different readings.
We can have two different systems with the same high PO4 level. One system my flourish, and the other may crash. This is obviously due to the fact that other factors or determining the outcome. Not the PO4 level.

Again, IMHO

Understanding "bio markers" is much more important than the numbers we get from PO4 and NO3 test kits. Bio markers can tell us things that test kits simply can not. One real simple and obvious bio marker is algae growth. If you're growing algae any where in the system, you know, for a fact, that the system is producing enough inorganic N and P to support that growth. Period. There's no other way around it. The readings from NO3 and PO4 test kits are irrelevant. There's no test kit that can tell us the amount of inorganic N and P our systems produce, but mother nature can give us an idea, based on the amount of algae the system grows. She never lies. Other bio markers can be the color, health, and growth rate of corals, and the population of organisms like pods, worms, sponges, feather dusters.................

Corals need N and P just as all other life on this planet does. That does not mean that they need inorganic N and P floating around in the water where they live. Most corals have multiple methods for obtaining the N and P they need, but they all require feeding, or digestion. Not absorption of inorganic N and P from the water. Yes, they can indirectly benefit from inorganic N and P in the water were they live, by digesting their own zooxanthellae, and/or consuming microbes that live in mucus on their surface.

The coral animal has three major souses for obtaining N and P directly. All three are from organic sources. Digesting zooxanthellae, feeding on organic particles including microbes in their mucus, and capturing prey including organic particles.

They benefit indirectly by digesting their own zooxanthellae after the zooxanthellae have taken up inorganic N and P from the water, and they do the same with microbes that live on their surface in mucus. However, the zooxanthellae and the microbes don't require inorganics in the water either. They can both be supported through the inorganic N and P produced by a well fed host. In fact, the coral will not digest its zooxanthellae if it is well fed, and only resorts to digestion of its own zooxanthellae when food is in short supply.

So, when people maintain X amount of N and P in the water, and see an improvement, they're indirectly making up for a lack of food for the host animal. When we come to the conclusion that a coral is starving, (pale color and slow growth) we often go straight to raising N and P, when that is not our only option, and IMHO, not the best option. The goal to help any starving animal is to provide more food. Through elevating N and P, we encourage more rapid growth of zooxanthellae and microbes, which increases the availability of food for the coral host. We could simply increase food directly. In doing so we could avoid increasing N and P, and all the testing, monitoring, measuring, and dosing involved.

Again JMHO
Peace
EC

Well I did feed a lot and I target feed the corals 6 month didn’t see any changes other then my corals bleaching ..and only in one week of adding nitrate and lowering my alkalinity did the trick ..now after one week all my corals look open fatter colorful and grow I even dose energy from Red Sea a&b and nothing... and as far as Ik zooxanhellae is a type of algae and algae eat nitrate and phosphate

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Well I did feed a lot and I target feed the corals 6 month didn’t see any changes other then my corals bleaching ..and only in one week of adding nitrate and lowering my alkalinity did the trick ..now after one week all my corals look open fatter colorful and grow I even dose energy from Red Sea a&b and nothing... and as far as Ik zooxanhellae is a type of algae and algae eat nitrate and phosphate

Never thought about increasing the availability of essential nutrients by just silence the skimmer for a period of time?

 

[Cryptocaryon]

ULN systems are imo needless and do not benefit corals. Just keep all you parameters as close to NSW as possible because that is ultimately where they come from. Coral and other inverts have an amazing ability to adapt to thier environment and of course just like farming plants we can stimulate growth for bigger harvests, or the worlds largest marrow.

 

[Cheche]

Never thought about increasing the availability of essential nutrients by just silence the skimmer for a period of time?

Yes I did too .. I put my skimmer on a timer off at night and on a few hours on the day ..I see nothing my nitrate stay low and 0 phosphate.. imo the key to a colorful and thriving corals is nitrate.. if I’m not mistaken even if you have high alkalinity for fast grow you can have higher nitrate I had high alk 11.4 and 0 nitrate.. didn’t work so I was really trying to lower my alkalinity and see how it work and I add some nitrate. Well I end up over dosing nitrate and that took me to do wc but I didn’t see the corals retreat or anything bad the other way around everybody was super happy but I didn’t want my nitrate so high and after 80g wc I did 10g every 5 hours to get my nitrate to 10 ppl and then I was amazing of the outcome I will never go to 0 nitrate ever again it only work when I add nitrate to the tank .. is a video on YouTube and the guy Explain and show videos of his coral with 1 ppm and 5 ppm on nitrate corals are bleaching at low nitrate and looking amazing on 5 ppm it was wired to see but that convinced me on trying.. and it work for me ..

 

[Elegance Coral]

Do you have references to back up this statement?
During my research about the coral holobiont and symbodinium I could not find one paper showing corals will digest its symbodinium. The symbodinium may deliver nutrients to the holobiont and coral as does the coral by excrements to maintain the holobiont. As far as I know symbodinium are not digested as it was food . In nature corals use organic and anorganic P and N mainly retrieved from its holobiont in which the availability of N and P is completely different from what will be measured in the water column.

https://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/139/m139p167.pdf

This should explain it for you.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

That's one of the most interesting explanations I've read.

My vote would be feed your fish and corals more than enough to be sure that they're fat and happy.

If this results in rising N or P, take steps to control it, but don't worry about going near zero.

Then again, I've neen fortunate to have never had a serious algae battle.

I find some logic in some of the "dated" BRS advise to run very low the first 3 or 4 months on a new tank to prevent algae from establishing a major niche.

Controlling growth is about competition and bio diversity not about preventing. As we speak about a closed system, what we measure is what is left over on the moment of measuring. Going near O or undetectable is asking for problems. There is no reason to keep on very low levels of nitrate and phosphate as long they are positive balanced. Certainly in a new set up a lot of nutrients and building materials are needed to install the carrying capacity needed to support diversity and live.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

https://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/139/m139p167.pdf

This should explain it for you.

Thank you very much.

It seems it is about the definition of what is " digestion". About an animal " digesting " food and absorbs it. In this work intercellular absorbtion of already degradated symbiodinium is called " digestion" by the researchers.
The researches also observed "digestion" of apparently healthy zooxanthellae. I did not read all already but it seems it is not clear if the degradation is caused by the coral to feed itself . it seems the symbiodinium has degradated because of external conditions nothing to do with the coral. In 1996 not many was known about the coral holobiont.
I do not know if any enzymes are produced and used by the host with the intension to "digest" symbodinium, if the coral has the intension to feed on the symbodimium, use it as a foodsource and produces the enzymes to "digest" it. In what conditions the enzymes are activated as in the case the coral may grow on the "digestion" of symbiodinium.

Sorry about the misunderstanding about " digestion" and thank you again for the link.