The ich conundrum

[Jesterrace]

Okay, here is the situation. In November I upgraded from 36 gallon bowfront to my current 90 gallon tank. The following stock was transferred:

1 Diamond Watchman Goby
1 Juvie Melanurus Wrasse
1 cleaner shrimp
a few hermit crabs
6-7 snails
1 Frogspawn Frag
1 Hammer Frag

A couple of weeks after I got the new tank up and running and everything checked out as stable, I added a young male melanurus wrasse (in the hopes of having a male and female pair). After the first day the two appeared to be getting along well and hanging out with each other. About 3-4 days later I noticed a faded white spot in the middle of the male wrasses' tail. A couple of days later I noticed a clamped torn fin with a few white spots on it and what looked like a cyst on it's head. That night it died and I pulled it out of the tank immediately. Given the fact that I didn't have a QT Tank setup at the time and the two fish are virtually impossible to catch (I have tried the coke bottle method and an actual fish trap), I used some Kent's Garlic to add to their food for a couple of weeks to help build their immune system. I would love to just put copper in there but that would kill my shrimp, corals and other inverts. The only way I ever caught those two fish was when I pulled everything out of my 36 gallon and drained the water down to just a couple of inches, but I don't want to do that again and risk cycling my entire tank again (and killing my shrimp and corals in the process). The fish appear to be doing fine and have no visible spots or red gills, they are active and eat well. The other wrasse died about 8 weeks ago. During this time I have had a 32 gallon garbage can that is currently setup to cycle another 50lbs of rock that will be going in the tank. The rock cycled about 3 weeks ago, so technically with a simple added LED I suppose I could turn the 32 gallon garbage can into a quarantine of sorts and leave a piece or two of the current live rock behind to help keep the water stable. So should I try yet again to get the two fish out of the tank and then dose copper in the quarantine or should I try a different route and pull the shrimp and the two pieces of rock with coral out and put them in the garbage can while I dose the main tank with copper? Or do I just wait a few more weeks and then try adding another cheap fish to the tank and see what happens? As I understand it there doesn't seem to be any 100% guaranteed way of getting rid of ich.

 

[mcarroll]

Stop worrying unless you see further signs of trouble.

As long as your fish were healthy before you put this guy in they have nothing to fear.

Tearing up the tank trying to catch a wrasse would just add more stress to the situation – won't help at all and could break down some or all of your existing fish.

(And you're experience is consistent with many – traps don't work worth a darn. Hook and line is the way if you're serious. You'll have the fish you want in no time and it won't cause any significant stress to the system. (It's so quick the fish you catch doesn't even seem to mind once it's over.)

Just keep the tank stable and feed them well. If you're only feeding one food or only feeding dry food, then maybe branch out and do something special for them like reef plankton or krill....whatever would make sense, but make it of marine origin and make sure it's ORANGE in color...those pigments and fatty acids are used by the immune system.

 

[Dalmatia]

You can try metroplex. Just does the water and not the food. It's reef safe

 

[USMC 4 LIFE]

You can try metroplex. Just does the water and not the food. It's reef safe

Metro is not reef safe.

 

[mcarroll]

From the Seachen site i can see why this is confusing, but no it's not reef safe:

When used in a medicated food mix, it is excellent for treating parasites in tanks that contain invertebrates.

Sounds like it's reef safe there, but....

That info is followed by this in the actual instructions:

Dosing in Water
Remove all invertebrates - these are extremely sensitive to medication.

It's only "reef safe" when using it as part of your feed with their companion product that's called Focus.

 

[Dalmatia]

From the Seachen site i can see why this is confusing, but no it's not reef safe:


Sounds like it's reef safe there, but....

That info is followed by this in the actual instructions:


It's only "reef safe" when using it as part of your feed with their companion product that's called Focus.

I've use it in my nano?

 

[mcarroll]

I've use it in my nano?

I'd have to ask you or Seachem to explain it – I can't. I'm glad it worked out though!

I could only say that there's no drug like this that ONLY target pathogens, it's just a chemical so it would target any like organism....and there are sooo many unknown microbes in a reef that are integral to system stability that I just wouldn't mess with it.

In the OP's shoes, if I were going to go a treatment route (which I wouldn't), I would use the hook and line to catch them to move them to a hospital tank for treatment.

2¢

 

[Jesterrace]

Hey folks, I think I will stick with just leaving them alone and just trying a new cheap fish. The only big stresser I have left for them is to add the remaining rock from the garbage can to my current tank. I only the roughly 40lbs from my old 36 gallon and 50lbs in the garbage can. I may still use the garbage can as a QT for a while. What do you think? About all I need is a cheap LED light.

 

[mcarroll]

That's pretty major – I would have tried my darndest to get that done first when the old rock went in.

I would get that done ASAP and not worry about adding more fish until a month or few afterward.

 

[Jesterrace]

That's pretty major – I would have tried my darndest to get that done first when the old rock went in.

I would get that done ASAP and not worry about adding more fish until a month or few afterward.

It was done because the rock needed to cycle. The other stuff was already long established from my other tank. I plan on adding the rock in the next few days. I will wait a few more weeks afterwards. Do you think it would be a good idea to leave a piece or two behind for the garbage can to make a quarantine tank?

 

[mcarroll]

It was done because the rock needed to cycle. The other stuff was already long established from my other tank. I plan on adding the rock in the next few days. I will wait a few more weeks afterwards.

I totally get it; just saying that would have been the best first step vs having to do it now. Cycle the new rock and get it ready. Set up the new tank and put the rock in. Load the old rock on top of it/in with it. Etc...

Do you think it would be a good idea to leave a piece or two behind for the garbage can to make a quarantine tank?

If that's your chosen QT container, yes. But if there's a decent small piece you wouldn't miss too much (it can go back if all stays well in the QT), I'd swap in one of the old, well-seasoned rocks from the old tank to the can when the new rock comes out. Put some fake plants or other naturalistic decorations in there too. Nothing elaborate or fancy....like I said fake plastic plants.

That said, a garbage can isn't very ideal for QT since you can't really see the fish in a meaningful way. I don't know your exact goals, but I'm not sure I'd bother with that. Any chance of getting a clear tank suitable for observation (the main function of a QT)?

If you can't get a clear tank BUT you are bringing home healthy, local fish, then I'd probably put them in the display directly just like you did before.

So are you shopping local for your livestock or buying online in large quantity? I'd recommend the former if possible. Easier and lower risk.

Let us know how the looking goes – remember to try and observe the fish you want to bring home on multiple occasions before buying. You can be a lot more confident in your new fish if they aren't brand new to you when you bring them home to the tank.

 

[Jesterrace]

I totally get it; just saying that would have been the best first step vs having to do it now. Cycle the new rock and get it ready. Set up the new tank and put the rock in. Load the old rock on top of it/in with it. Etc...



If that's your chosen QT container, yes. But if there's a decent small piece you wouldn't miss too much (it can go back if all stays well in the QT), I'd swap in one of the old, well-seasoned rocks from the old tank to the can when the new rock comes out. Put some fake plants or other naturalistic decorations in there too. Nothing elaborate or fancy....like I said fake plastic plants.

That said, a garbage can isn't very ideal for QT since you can't really see the fish in a meaningful way. I don't know your exact goals, but I'm not sure I'd bother with that. Any chance of getting a clear tank suitable for observation (the main function of a QT)?

If you can't get a clear tank BUT you are bringing home healthy, local fish, then I'd probably put them in the display directly just like you did before.

So are you shopping local for your livestock or buying online in large quantity? I'd recommend the former if possible. Easier and lower risk.

Let us know how the looking goes – remember to try and observe the fish you want to bring home on multiple occasions before buying. You can be a lot more confident in your new fish if they aren't brand new to you when you bring them home to the tank.

I buy from my LFS for the reasons you mentioned. I made the mistake of buying that Male Wrasse and picked it up on the day it shipped in while it was still in the shipping bag. I know the owner of my LFS and I talked to him about the possibility of buying the fish from him, paying for it when it comes in and then leaving it in one of his holding tanks for a couple of weeks. He runs copper in all of his fish holding tanks. I don't get the joy of seeing it during quarantine and I run the risk of paying for a fish that dies, but it's better than sticking it in my display tank and then letting die AND infect my other fish. He agreed to do it as long as I pay for the fish. For cheap fish to try after this is all done and a few more weeks go by, I am considering a Pajama Cardinal or maybe a regular occ clownfish. As I understand it a regular captive bred clown is about as bullet proof of a fish as I can get.

 

[mcarroll]

He runs copper in all of his fish holding tanks

Not ideal, but still glad you have a local option that you like!!!

Unfortunately, that system leaves you holding the bag, so to speak, if something like this happens. He's preventing the outbreak from happening at his shop, but he's also preventing the fish from fully recovering at his shop like they should. Good for the bottom line and somewhat understandable, but leaves you in a bad position IMO. Imagine someone on cold medicine that appears healthy and you get on an airplane with them – four hours later their med wears off and now you're sharing a flight with someone that has a full-blown flu or cold. It's just like that.

Granted in this case you got the fish from his wholesale bags, but that still means you need to act like your own LFS and at least provide an observation period where you can really focus on them and feed them really well, etc. Same as if you brought home a copper fish.

If you can provide that observation tank, it's not a bad way to go at all....if I had the room for an observation tank, I'd do that rather than bring home fish that have been held for weeks in copper. Just dress it up like a cheap display tank (a piece of live rock, fake plants, etc) rather than a stereotypical QT/hospital tank that's almost 100% bare (which is stressful).

Just for perspective, a more mature tank would make most of this A LOT less necessary and most fish you'd get from his bags would be fine to put in your display. It's just risky to try it on an immature tank though.

 

[Joseph Wright]

I have no scientific proof, but, Kent garlic concentrate and ginger got rid of the ick that was practically covering my entire hippo tang. Within two days all the white spots had gone and just little scars remained. The powdered ginger was right out of the spice cabinet. But it was pure ginger. I was really worried about the ick killing everything, I’m still dosing until I believe I’m in the clear. I have a mixed reef of softies, LPS, 9 fish, 2 shrimp, and a BTA. The tank is a 110 high, with a 55 fuge w/ chaeto, uv sterilizer and other std reef equipment. Would never have believed it, and it was definitely ick. The garlic and ginger didn’t effect anything in the tank, and since the start of dosing, my star polyp and Zoas have gone nuts growing. No parameters have changed. In my opinion, it’s worth shot and I’ll definitely use it again. Just hoping for no more outbreaks. Good luck with yours!

 

[Jesterrace]

I have no scientific proof, but, Kent garlic concentrate and ginger got rid of the ick that was practically covering my entire hippo tang. Within two days all the white spots had gone and just little scars remained. The powdered ginger was right out of the spice cabinet. But it was pure ginger. I was really worried about the ick killing everything, I’m still dosing until I believe I’m in the clear. I have a mixed reef of softies, LPS, 9 fish, 2 shrimp, and a BTA. The tank is a 110 high, with a 55 fuge w/ chaeto, uv sterilizer and other std reef equipment. Would never have believed it, and it was definitely ick. The garlic and ginger didn’t effect anything in the tank, and since the start of dosing, my star polyp and Zoas have gone nuts growing. No parameters have changed. In my opinion, it’s worth shot and I’ll definitely use it again. Just hoping for no more outbreaks. Good luck with yours!

Yeah, I used the Kent's Garlic in the food and let it marinate and then fed it to the fish. It worked well and didn't hurt the tank at all. I did see a white spot/strip on my young wrasse's tail about 5-6 weeks ago but it disappeared