The Ultimate Water Change??

[Diesel]

I'm sold on consistent WCs ever since I serviced tanks for a LFS. Those tanks flourished for the 6-7 years I cared for them and they are still flourishing today 4 years later. No crashes or heart ache stories-just fish living and thriving decades instead of months or years.

How was this consistent WC done?

 

[Keithcorals]

Red sea blue bucket

Thanks I'll look into that one.

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

Why would you spend $$$$$$ and take a chance on losing everything because your water qualities went south?

I don't personally practice this, and I'm certainly not opposed to water changes. I am just pointing out that it can and has been done quite successfully. The argument for stability in a reef is one of the biggest reasons for not doing a water change if params can be maintained by other means. I'm just considering the possibility that maybe those who don't do water changes frequently are not necessarily wrong. Maybe they just have a different method than the one that has been done typically.

Remember that not too long ago, everyone thought that we needed bioballs and undergravel filters. Those things were replaced by people who chose to try new things. Just because we've always done something a certain way, doesn't make it right or best or the only way.

I have noticed better colors and pe with doing water changes. I can get behind it being a good idea. Some people have great success without them though. I see a common thing now days with water changes being advised for every problem you can think of. This is what I meant in my previous post.... Fish have ich, water change.... Hair algae, water change... rtn, water change...

+1 I agree very much with this post!

 

[dreefman]

I make my own water I have a ro/di and I change my water in my 90 every 2 weeks I change 30gl every 2 weeks keep testing your water and I would change around 15 gal e every couple of weeks keep reading post's and you will figure it all out good luck and have fun

 

[Lesley]

What works for one may not work for another. Each to their own if it works. Totally agree with previous puts. New is not necessarily bad

 

[vlangel]

How was this consistent WC done?

I just arrived at the customer's, mixed their water with salt, checked the salinity and out with the old, in with the new. I try to get the customer to agree for the good of the tank that at least 25% a month should be done on a schedule previously agreed upon. FOWLR only needed to be done once a month but reef tanks needed attention more often than that. WCs were only part of the service, there was general maintenance as well.

 

[d2mini]

Mike Paletta should spend more time on ReefCentral.
Randy has a pretty good article and this gets discussed pretty often.
Water Changes in Reef Aquaria by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
He goes over the differences between large batch, small batch and continuous.

Personally, I prefer automated "continuous" or daily changes for two reasons.
1) I'm lazy. So anything automated is a plus in my book. And small water changes are easier to automate.
2) I believe there is less stress on the system by doing very small water changes as opposed to large water changes.

I've been doing it this way for several years and I'm on my second tank with this process and it has worked out very well.
I originally set it up using a LiterMeter III, but now i use my GHL Profilux and Level Sensors in my sump. The latter never needs to be calibrated and it's the most precise. The system will put back in the exact same amount of water that it took out, automatically. All you have to do is set the height of each of the two sensors to approximately equal the amount of water you want changed out each time. The Profilux will allow me to perform the AWC several times per day. I choose to just do it once or twice. I have it set to change approx. 1% each time. So i've been going back and forth between once and twice per day (1%-2%). I think I only really need 1% per day, but I was curious if there was any difference if I doubled it. I'm not really sure one way or the other yet. Regardless, it's freakin awesome. All i have to do is mix a new 55g batch of saltwater every week or two.

My system is a 200g display tank, almost all SPS and LPS.
I have around 17 fish including several tangs and an angel. I feed kinda heavy once daily.
I have a display refugium, a frag tank and the big rubber maid sump, bringing my total water volume to somewhere around 350g.
Nitrates are always 4ppm or less and phosphates are anywhere between .04-.08 usually.
I don't use bio-pellets, i don't carbon dose, i even stopped using GFO. I do run ozone now and I still run carbon.
I believe my constant water changes, my Life Reef skimmer and my refugium are managing my parameters pretty well, along with all the live rock, live sand, and countless members of my cleanup crew.


Here's my mixing station on the right.
Freshwater on top (just for mixing up new saltwater), saltwater on the bottom.
There is a small pump in the saltwater container with 1/4" water line running to the sump.

And here is the empty sump where you can see the level sensors at the top right.
I have one mechanical and one optical. Will eventually swap out the mechanical for another optical.

The optical sensor is the "high" or "fill" sensor. When the water level gets back up to this sensor, the fill pump is turned off and the AWC is complete.
This sensor also controls the ATO, which is automatically disabled during the AWC.

The GHL Profilux comes with this AWC programming as standard. All you need is the two sensors and any pumps you want to use.

 

[d2mini]

The argument for stability in a reef is one of the biggest reasons for not doing a water change if params can be maintained by other means. I'm just considering the possibility that maybe those who don't do water changes frequently are not necessarily wrong. Maybe they just have a different method than the one that has been done typically.

Parameters cannot be maintained by 99.9% of us without doing water changes.
The lifeforms in our tanks need more than just the big 3. More than iron and potassium or whatever else you can buy in a bottle.
Elements that we can't test for.
The only person I know of that seems to have come close to figuring all this out is the guy who came up with the DSR method, and it's so freakin complicated, I'd much rather spend a few minutes doing a water change.
UltimateReef.com - View Single Post - Dutch Synthetic Reefing?

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

Parameters cannot be maintained by 99.9% of us without doing water changes.
The lifeforms in our tanks need more than just the big 3. More than iron and potassium or whatever else you can buy in a bottle.
Elements that we can't test for.
The only person I know of that seems to have come close to figuring all this out is the guy who came up with the DSR method, and it's so freakin complicated, I'd much rather spend a few minutes doing a water change.
UltimateReef.com - View Single Post - Dutch Synthetic Reefing?

That's not an easy argument to maintain since it is being done successfully...

I do agree that for most of us water changes are the safest way to go, but to assert that they are a must denies the experience of those who prove that statement erroneous. Not saying we shouldn't do water changes...just that a reef CAN be maintained without them which would suggest that the lifeforms are able to be maintained without them...or at least with a very seldom wc.

 

[Diesel]

Parameters cannot be maintained by 99.9% of us without doing water changes.
The lifeforms in our tanks need more than just the big 3. More than iron and potassium or whatever else you can buy in a bottle.
Elements that we can't test for.
The only person I know of that seems to have come close to figuring all this out is the guy who came up with the DSR method, and it's so freakin complicated, I'd much rather spend a few minutes doing a water change.
UltimateReef.com - View Single Post - Dutch Synthetic Reefing?

The Dutch guy has a name.........Glenn Fong
I believe that I met him once in Utrecht, a old town centered in Holland.
Been reading a bunch of his stuff on Nederlands en Belgisch Zeewater Forum

Btw, Paletta is invited to stay at my house as I ask him to come and hoping to be a speaker at Reef Current 2015.
I also will take him on a tour to see the reef in the country and drink Vodka (cause we don't dose it, LOL) on your new flagstone patio.

 

[ddinox64]

I'll add another post to my total. 90 gallon mixed reef. 30 gallon sump. Handful of fish. Quite a few coral. Do 10 gallons a month. Use Catalina water which everyone here on the West coast seems to hate. But works for me. Don't dose anything. No fancy equipment. I'm with the K.I.S.S. method. Can't remember the last time I tested my water. I just keep an eye on salinity. One coral not looking right doesn't mean anything. They eventually open back up. Widespread closure. Then something is up. But not having 20 different dosers for different things. I don't need to guess my problem. Has to be my water.
Thought I had a newer picture. FTS is old. Didn't notice without my glasses on.

 

[mike007]

Mike Paletta should spend more time on ReefCentral.
Randy has a pretty good article and this gets discussed pretty often.
Water Changes in Reef Aquaria by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
He goes over the differences between large batch, small batch and continuous.

Personally, I prefer automated "continuous" or daily changes for two reasons.
1) I'm lazy. So anything automated is a plus in my book. And small water changes are easier to automate.
2) I believe there is less stress on the system by doing very small water changes as opposed to large water changes.

I've been doing it this way for several years and I'm on my second tank with this process and it has worked out very well.
I originally set it up using a LiterMeter III, but now i use my GHL Profilux and Level Sensors in my sump. The latter never needs to be calibrated and it's the most precise. The system will put back in the exact same amount of water that it took out, automatically. All you have to do is set the height of each of the two sensors to approximately equal the amount of water you want changed out each time. The Profilux will allow me to perform the AWC several times per day. I choose to just do it once or twice. I have it set to change approx. 1% each time. So i've been going back and forth between once and twice per day (1%-2%). I think I only really need 1% per day, but I was curious if there was any difference if I doubled it. I'm not really sure one way or the other yet. Regardless, it's freakin awesome. All i have to do is mix a new 55g batch of saltwater every week or two.

My system is a 200g display tank, almost all SPS and LPS.
I have around 17 fish including several tangs and an angel. I feed kinda heavy once daily.
I have a display refugium, a frag tank and the big rubber maid sump, bringing my total water volume to somewhere around 350g.
Nitrates are always 4ppm or less and phosphates are anywhere between .04-.08 usually.
I don't use bio-pellets, i don't carbon dose, i even stopped using GFO. I do run ozone now and I still run carbon.
I believe my constant water changes, my Life Reef skimmer and my refugium are managing my parameters pretty well, along with all the live rock, live sand, and countless members of my cleanup crew.


Here's my mixing station on the right.
Freshwater on top (just for mixing up new saltwater), saltwater on the bottom.
There is a small pump in the saltwater container with 1/4" water line running to the sump.

And here is the empty sump where you can see the level sensors at the top right.
I have one mechanical and one optical. Will eventually swap out the mechanical for another optical.

The optical sensor is the "high" or "fill" sensor. When the water level gets back up to this sensor, the fill pump is turned off and the AWC is complete.
This sensor also controls the ATO, which is automatically disabled during the AWC.

The GHL Profilux comes with this AWC programming as standard. All you need is the two sensors and any pumps you want to use.

Nice setup and I totally agree with small frequent water changes. I think that is what Mike is trying to convey.

 

[d2mini]

That's not an easy argument to maintain since it is being done successfully...

I'm not saying your tank can't "survive" for a few years.
What I'm saying is there are things being used up that you physically can't replace without doing water changes. That's not an argument... that's a fact.
99.9% of the people not doing WC's, are not attempting to add all these minor elements. They don't even know what they are.
Eventually, that's going to catch up to you. And how soon depends on a lot of other factors.
Even a decent size water change once or twice a year is better than nothing at all and will probably replace a good portion of these minor elements that get used up at a much slower rate than the ones we are more familiar with.

 

[Pete polyp]

I'm not saying your tank can't "survive" for a few years.
What I'm saying is there are things being used up that you physically can't replace without doing water changes. That's not an argument... that's a fact.
99.9% of the people not doing WC's, are not attempting to add all these minor elements. They don't even know what they are.
Eventually, that's going to catch up to you. And how soon depends on a lot of other factors.
Even a decent size water change once or twice a year is better than nothing at all and will probably replace a good portion of these minor elements that get used up at a much slower rate than the ones we are more familiar with.

How is trying to replace minor elements not the same as doing it with water changes? Depending on the synthetic salt being used there could be differences in levels and more or less of these elements from brand to brand. These elements are added during the manufacturing of this product. I will have to disagree that the same can't be added with a supplement just the same as with using fresh salt. To me its like saying seachem only does it right when they make the salt and their Reef elements is junk. They know the levels that are in the salt just as they know the levels in the supplement. So what's the difference?

 

[tyler1503]

How is trying to replace minor elements not the same as doing it with water changes? Depending on the synthetic salt being used there could be differences in levels and more or less of these elements from brand to brand. These elements are added during the manufacturing of this product. I will have to disagree that the same can't be added with a supplement just the same as with using fresh salt. To me its like saying seachem only does it right when they make the salt and their Reef elements is junk. They know the levels that are in the salt just as they know the levels in the supplement. So what's the difference?

I think what he means is water changes are the only way the AVERAGE reefer can keep ALL parameters (major, minor and trace elements) in check. Sure we can keep cal, alk and mag stable. But there's atleast 70 trace elements the average reefer probably doesn't add to their tanks, most of which the average person hasn't heard of.
We can add things like the trace elements in a bottle type products, but what happens when a tank depletes an element (for arguments sake lets say potassium) faster than another for instance iodine. To get potassium back to the original level, we'd have to add all that extra iodine which is in direct contrast to the generally accepted idea of keeping things stable.
That's where water changes can help because they will help raise that potassium and dilute that extra iodine keeping things at a generally balanced level.
I may be wrong, but that's how I see it anyway lol.

 

[sawdonkey]

I think what he means is water changes are the only way the AVERAGE reefer can keep ALL parameters (major, minor and trace elements) in check. Sure we can keep cal, alk and mag stable. But there's atleast 70 trace elements the average reefer probably doesn't add to their tanks, most of which the average person hasn't heard of.
We can add things like the trace elements in a bottle type products, but what happens when a tank depletes an element (for arguments sake lets say potassium) faster than another for instance iodine. To get potassium back to the original level, we'd have to add all that extra iodine which is in direct contrast to the generally accepted idea of keeping things stable.
That's where water changes can help because they will help raise that potassium and dilute that extra iodine keeping things at a generally balanced level.
I may be wrong, but that's how I see it anyway lol.

I'm not sure this makes sense. Why does it matter if potassium is replaced with a water change or by adding trace elements? In both cases, you're adding a smorgasbord of elements and don't have individual control. If you do a water change, you get all of the element in a balance ratio. If you add trace elements, you get all of the elements in a balanced ratio. What am I missing?

By the way, I do about 45 gallons every six weeks on my 260 total volume, nearly all sps. I run biopellets and gfo to keep nitrate and phos in check since I have some big fish.

 

[tyler1503]

I'm not sure this makes sense. Why does it matter if potassium is replaced with a water change or by adding trace elements? In both cases, you're adding a smorgasbord of elements and don't have individual control. If you do a water change, you get all of the element in a balance ratio. If you add trace elements, you get all of the elements in a balanced ratio. What am I missing?

By the way, I do about 45 gallons every six weeks on my 260 total volume, nearly all sps. I run biopellets and gfo to keep nitrate and phos in check since I have some big fish.

You do get them in a balanced ratio in a bottle, but corals won't use these trace elements in a balanced ratio so some levels will deplete faster than others. A water change will bring up low levels of elements and dilute high levels. Bottled products will bring up lows levels AND high levels regardless.
I'm not saying dosing is wrong and water changes are right. Each to his own. Both can work very well for different tanks

 

[b_rad_G]

The advantage of a water change over a trace elements dosing is this.

Say iodine is 100 ppm and potassium dropped to 50. The salt mix has 100 ppm iodine and 100 ppm potassium. If you do a 50% change your iodine is still 100 and potassium goes to 75. The unused elements will never exceed the salt mix levels.

If you dosed the same ratio of elements without a water change iodine would rise to 125 ppm while u bring back potassium to 75 ppm. Eventually you would have a large amount of iodine.

The problem with utilizing water changes is if potassium went from 100 to 50 in the water change cycle and was bumped back to 75 then during the next cycle it would drop to 25 ppm. With the same 50% change you would only bring it back up to 62.5 ppm and it would continue to decline.

Technically if you do and % of water change you will always have some amount of original water. Even if you do 90% for 10 years you will have some trace of the first drop you added to your tank.

 

[b_rad_G]

The major problem with a water change is almost all salt mixes the big 3 to levels we don't want our tanks at. When a person wants 410 ca and 8 dkh but instant ocean mixes to 8.4 and 380 you levels get jacked up every time a water change is performed. Now you spend the next 3 days trying to dial the tank back in.

IMO for a regular water change to be effective in a very stable tank one of a few things has to happen.

1. Very small daily changes. The user can adjust daily dosing to adjust for the different levels in salt mix.

2. You must match your salt mix to the tank levels very close to avoid a big swing. If I do a 50% change with reef crystals my dkh will swing around 2 points. That is plenty to **** off every sps known! A 25% would swing 1 dkh. That is not as dramatic but still more of a swing than I would like.

 

[tyler1503]

Say iodine is 100 ppm and potassium dropped to 50. The salt mix has 100 ppm iodine and 100 ppm potassium. If you do a 50% change your iodine is still 100 and potassium goes to 75. The unused elements will never exceed the salt mix levels.

If you dosed the same ratio of elements without a water change iodine would rise to 125 ppm while u bring back potassium to 75 ppm. Eventually you would have a large amount of iodine.

Exactly. This I what I was trying to say before