The Wrasse Lover's Thread!

[evolved]

This might be a dumb question, but are all wrasses copepod eating fiends? I'm planning a new 75g tank and I know I'm going to add a dragonet (preferably 2) but I also really wanted to add a wrasse or three. I'm trying to stay away from fish that will out compete my dragonets for their pods. Does this mean I have to stay away from wrasses completely? Or are there some species of wrasse that don't eat as many pods and will be safe? Thanks!

The flashers and fairy wrasses tend to only eat from the water column. They may be a good fish for you

Right, and that's where it stops. Cirrhilabrus and Paracheilinus are safe - any other reef safe genera will compete with the mandarin's food supply.

 

[KJoFan]

I'm not sure this is the thread for this, but I'm just thinking/wondering out loud regarding wrasses, leopard wrasses specifically and stress during shipping. Is it believed that the extreme stress some of the more sensitive wrasses experience opens the door to perhaps an internal infection that leads to their easy demise?

Or, if not, what might account for the high mortality rate for some of the leopard wrasses shortly after shipping/receiving? Hoping the wrasse experts chime in if they've considered this before.

 

[ascheff]

There is an article on marinecollectors.com that attributes it to a combination of trauma to the gills caused by ammonia buildup during shipping and the fish then being immediately acclimated into water containing copper (at home, at the LFS or somewhere else in the supply chain), which is a gill irritant. This combination is apparently what causes the decline in fish that are especially sensitive to trauma, like leopard wrasses.

 

[eatbreakfast]

I'm not sure this is the thread for this, but I'm just thinking/wondering out loud regarding wrasses, leopard wrasses specifically and stress during shipping. Is it believed that the extreme stress some of the more sensitive wrasses experience opens the door to perhaps an internal infection that leads to their easy demise?

Or, if not, what might account for the high mortality rate for some of the leopard wrasses shortly after shipping/receiving? Hoping the wrasse experts chime in if they've considered this before.

I would attribute it to a number of factors. First and foremost, leopards, Anampses, and Pseudojuloides are sand burying species that seek to bury in times of stress and danger. If you've ever observed the process of burying, it's a very rapid shake. They can't bury in a bag, but may keep trying. Doing it once or twice is fine, but if they continually try, the exhaust themselves.

Another factor, is many specimens are younger and have a faster metabolism, but they are also exhausting themselves.

Leopards are prone to coming in with internal parasites. When exhausting themselves it leavesthem more susceptible to the harmful effects of parasites.

There is an article on marinecollectors.com that attributes it to a combination of trauma to the gills caused by ammonia buildup during shipping and the fish then being immediately acclimated into water containing copper (at home, at the LFS or somewhere else in the supply chain), which is a gill irritant. This combination is apparently what causes the decline in fish that are especially sensitive to trauma, like leopard wrasses.

There are many leopards that don't get acclimated to copper and are still sensitive.

The effects of ammonia buildup SHOULDN'T be a problem if acclimated correctly. This is because in a sealed bag respirated CO2 can't escape. This lowers the ph of the water. Below 6.5 ammonia is not toxic, so ammonia during shipping isn't an issue.

However, once the bag is opened the CO2 can escape and the ph rises. This is why best practice is to test the salinity of shipping water with a syringe and having new water ready that matches. This way the wrasse(or any fish really) can be acclimated in the new water without having to use any of the shipping water.

Methylene blue can also soothe gills.

 

[KJoFan]

There is an article on marinecollectors.com that attributes it to a combination of trauma to the gills caused by ammonia buildup during shipping and the fish then being immediately acclimated into water containing copper (at home, at the LFS or somewhere else in the supply chain), which is a gill irritant. This combination is apparently what causes the decline in fish that are especially sensitive to trauma, like leopard wrasses.

I would attribute it to a number of factors. First and foremost, leopards, Anampses, and Pseudojuloides are sand burying species that seek to bury in times of stress and danger. If you've ever observed the process of burying, it's a very rapid shake. They can't bury in a bag, but may keep trying. Doing it once or twice is fine, but if they continually try, the exhaust themselves.

Another factor, is many specimens are younger and have a faster metabolism, but they are also exhausting themselves.

Leopards are prone to coming in with internal parasites. When exhausting themselves it leavesthem more susceptible to the harmful effects of parasites.

There are many leopards that don't get acclimated to copper and are still sensitive.

The effects of ammonia buildup SHOULDN'T be a problem if acclimated correctly. This is because in a sealed bag respirated CO2 can't escape. This lowers the ph of the water. Below 6.5 ammonia is not toxic, so ammonia during shipping isn't an issue.

However, once the bag is opened the CO2 can escape and the ph rises. This is why best practice is to test the salinity of shipping water with a syringe and having new water ready that matches. This way the wrasse(or any fish really) can be acclimated in the new water without having to use any of the shipping water.

Methylene blue can also soothe gills.

I appreciate the input. It was mostly just a curiosity as to why some of these species are so hard to transition/acclimate. I have wondered if a pre-treatment of the QT with an antibiotic or something would be helpful in helping them recover or not, especially given what you said about them being exhausted yet also probably having some kind parasite taking advantage of them.

 

[evolved]

I would attribute it to a number of factors. First and foremost, leopards, Anampses, and Pseudojuloides are sand burying species that seek to bury in times of stress and danger. If you've ever observed the process of burying, it's a very rapid shake. They can't bury in a bag, but may keep trying. Doing it once or twice is fine, but if they continually try, the exhaust themselves.

Another factor, is many specimens are younger and have a faster metabolism, but they are also exhausting themselves.

Leopards are prone to coming in with internal parasites. When exhausting themselves it leaves them more susceptible to the harmful effects of parasites.

Agree with these thoughts.

 

[KJoFan]

Agree with these thoughts.

That all makes good sense. In fact, when I think on it from that perspective, leopards are probably collected and immediately moved on to wholesalers and beyond and into our tanks within a matter of several days with no rest/time to recover or sand to bury in. I'd probably just keel over too.

 

[saltyhog]

This will be a beautiful and unique fish but I just can't understand $1500 for a flasher wrasse that will live 3 or 4 years.

https://www.liveaquaria.com/divers-den/product/458748/nursalim-flasher-wrasse-initial-phase

 

[tkiry1]

Two new additions...

 

[evolved]

This will be a beautiful and unique fish but I just can't understand $1500 for a flasher wrasse that will live 3 or 4 years.

https://www.liveaquaria.com/divers-den/product/458748/nursalim-flasher-wrasse-initial-phase

Amen. I pretty much draw the line at $500 on Paracheilinus these days - they just don't live along enough for me to spend more.
The market will adjust if the demand isn't supported.

 

[ascheff]

Amen. I pretty much draw the line at $500 on Paracheilinus these days - they just don't live along enough for me to spend more.
The market will adjust if the demand isn't supported.

The problem is there is always someone who will be willing to pay, and with less frequently imported fishes, all it takes is one or two someones.

Take P. attenuatus. They were selling for the equivalent of $57 (yes, fifty seven) retail in stores here in South Africa about 2 months ago. And that was with a hearty markup by the store, as they landed for a fraction of that. One store had literally a whole tank full of them. Yet in the US I see they still sell for upwards of $500 (at least on Diver's Den, which I'm looking at), and while they don't sell like hotcakes anymore, someone is still buying them.

Our market is very different. The marine hobby is small and people here are not really interested in flasher wrasses, so they wouldn't likely sell for more anyway. I paid the equivalent of $140 6 months ago, and had to special order it through my LFS, as the stores wouldn't bring them in as a stock item at that price. It shows that somewhere in the chain between the collector and the American hobbyist, someone is making serious money.

 

[evolved]

It shows that somewhere in the chain between the collector and the American hobbyist, someone is making serious money.

It's not quite that simple though - the supply chain to get them here is twice as long, and all parties get a cut.
For you, it's collector to store. For here, it's collector, exporter, importer, store.

 

[ascheff]

It's not quite that simple though - the supply chain to get them here is twice as long, and all parties get a cut.
For you, it's collector to store. For here, it's collector, exporter, importer, store.

I'm not sure about exporters, but we definitely use wholesalers/importers too. Practically no stores here have their own import permits, cites, etc., nor can they order in sufficient quantities for any supplier to take them seriously, so the wholesaler gets the lists from suppliers (either collector, exporter, or for US shipments even US wholesalers like SDC or UWWE), who them distributes the lists to participating stores. Stores pick what they want, send to the wholesales, who then collates and creates the order. Due to them doing all the admin and paying all import fees and duties, they take their cut. Some wholesalers (we have a hand full) will received all orders as one shipment and then distribute, while others will let the order ship individually and the stores collect their own orders at the nearest airport.

 

[eatbreakfast]

Having transhipped fish quite frequently, the freight is the bulk of the price. Shipping is 3-5x's the cost of the fish, depending on how densely it's packed and the price of the various fish.

 

[ascheff]

Having transhipped fish quite frequently, the freight is the bulk of the price. Shipping is 3-5x's the cost of the fish, depending on how densely it's packed and the price of the various fish.

Very true, we pay a lot for sending bags of salt water around. But we are comparing the exact species of flasher wrasse, so probably shipped on the same amount of water. Granted, the one flight is cross continent, while the other is cross Atlantic, but can that really account for a 10 fold retail price difference?

 

[eatbreakfast]

The flight distance is 4-5x's greater to the U.S. than it is to South Africa.

Not all suppliers are currently charging $500. NY Aquatic is selling subadults for $150, his prices are comparable to wholesale on his Kenya stuff, and he gets it direct. Diver's Den gets theirs from a wholesaler, which thaen gets shipped from L.A. to Wisconsin. So their price reflects a 2.5-3x mark up, which is pretty standard for fish.

 

[HairyGary]

The flight distance is 4-5x's greater to the U.S. than it is to South Africa.

Not all suppliers are currently charging $500. NY Aquatic is selling subadults for $150, his prices are comparable to wholesale on his Kenya stuff, and he gets it direct. Diver's Den gets theirs from a wholesaler, which thaen gets shipped from L.A. to Wisconsin. So their price reflects a 2.5-3x mark up, which is pretty standard for fish.

I do have to say though, I do think they have gone up in price over the past year from when they were first coming to the states again. I got mine just over a year ago from my LFS at $350.00. I believe they received it from wholesaler (they do tranship now from RVS). So I would have to think that LA/DD is possibly taking advantage of the demand at $550 now. That may change though as there have been a few just sitting there recently. But I agree with @evolved and @saltyhog that over $500 is tough to swallow for a short lived fish. And if you really want one there are a few under $100 retail that are just as beautiful or more so than that Nursalim.

 

[saltyhog]

I keep hoping those two red tales don't sell and the price comes down a little....

 

[HairyGary]

I keep hoping those two red tales don't sell and the price comes down a little....

I have been eyeing one!

 

[Overboard]

Just got in a Rose Banded Fairy Wrasse! Love these guys. He will eventually go in my 360 with a few other fairy wrasses so my hope is any aggression stays in check. This one is pretty large (maybe 4 1/2 in.) with awesome coloration and a long tapering tail. Just hard to catch it in a picture. I will keep trying.