Theory on nutrient ratios and algae/bacteria

chefjpaul · Nov 22, 2017

Brew12 said:
Conversations such as this are exactly why I created this thread, I only regret that I have been too occupied to join in more! I'll need to go back and reread some of this.

[USER=66404]@Lasse , you have introduced me to a large amount of new science that I will need to take time to research![/user]

This is a Great thread!
One of the best in a long while.

MnFish1 · Nov 22, 2017

spiraling said:
I believe this is very much part of @Brew12 original post. He mentions:

And this discussion on cyano certainly refutes the part about adding phosphate remover and reinforces the add nitrates part, and absolutely confirms it thrives in a low nitrogen environment and maybe REQUIRE a low nitrate environment. But we can take it to a different thread if that is preferred.

I will try to make sense of this information in the confines of a reef tank. First off I think we all agree cyano needs at least 3 things: N, P, and light (since its photosynthetic). limiting any one of them will reduce the cyano to "acceptable" levels.

Light is a given in a reef tank, so not limiting. Even after a blackout it is believed that cyano strains are everywhere, and it is possible to get them from the air, so keeping it out of a reef tank is not possible. And limiting light will only work temporarily. (please refute if you feel this is incorrect) It is often cited that cyano likes lower light. I am unsure if this is the case, or it can more readily get nutrients from places that happen to be in lower light and low flow areas (sand bottom, detritus buildup) but either way reef tanks have an appropriate light level to grow cyano very well.

Cyano can readily get nitrogen from the water column. I am going to assert that the average reef tank has enough in the water column for cyano, and to reduce it to limiting levels I would assume we would then be impacting our nitrifying bacteria. Even if we did that it appears it can form symbiotic relationships with other anaerobic bacteria to produce nitrogen (unknown if these exist in out tanks). Either way limiting nitrogen probably isn't going to work for cyano.

So we need to limit phosphorous. It has been asserted that it does not get P from the water column, so adding a phosphate reducer (such as GFO in a canister) would presumably not work.

1 - bare bottom tank. these tanks anecdotally don't get much cyano. If the cyano creates a mat so it can pull P from below, then it would make sense on a glass surface that cyano cant use hydrogen sulfide to break down metals, because there are not enough trace metals in glass. These tanks my get it on rocks.

2 - sand bottom and NO3 < 2 In this condition the cyano forms mats and creates an anaerobic space. It depends on other anaerobic bacteria to create hydrogen sulfide (correct??) and it is assumed that these other bacteria are common in our tanks, or at least the ability to form a mat and use hydrogen sulfide in our tanks is common and accepted. The hydrogen sulfide breaks down the trace metals in the substrate (or rocks) to produce P. By increasing NO3 to >2 then the creation of hydrogen sulfide is inhibited, and the cyano is limited in getting P.

3 - sand bottom and "dirty". In this condition it is inferred that cyano can use decomposing food, poo, etc in the sand as a source of P. I would like to know more about this condition, because even those who routinely clean their sand will have some organics trapped there. So is there a threshold for how much? Routinely cleaning the sand would help with this, but quantitatively stating how clean sand should be is tough. Is there also a threshold with NO3 with dirty sand? Can if form mats at any NO3 level if there are enough organics below the mat?

Thoughts? Corrections?

No clue before being able to comment brew needs to show how using the ratio of n and p In bacteria (this is what he is saying. Not the n and p in the water) makes scientific sense in the reef aquarium. We are discussing lots of side points

Brew12 · Nov 22, 2017

MnFish1 said:
No clue before being able to comment brew needs to show how using the ratio of n and p In bacteria (this is what he is saying. Not the n and p in the water) makes scientific sense in the reef aquarium. We are discussing lots of side points

Just because you don't feel the need to understand the nutrient uptake of organisms in your system doesn't mean there isn't value to others. Since you see no value in understanding how it works and don't believe in the science anyway, why are you continuing to post?

saltyfilmfolks · Nov 22, 2017

spiraling said:
I believe this is very much part of @Brew12 original post. He mentions:

And this discussion on cyano certainly refutes the part about adding phosphate remover and reinforces the add nitrates part, and absolutely confirms it thrives in a low nitrogen environment and maybe REQUIRE a low nitrate environment. But we can take it to a different thread if that is preferred.

I will try to make sense of this information in the confines of a reef tank. First off I think we all agree cyano needs at least 3 things: N, P, and light (since its photosynthetic). limiting any one of them will reduce the cyano to "acceptable" levels.

Light is a given in a reef tank, so not limiting. Even after a blackout it is believed that cyano strains are everywhere, and it is possible to get them from the air, so keeping it out of a reef tank is not possible. And limiting light will only work temporarily. (please refute if you feel this is incorrect) It is often cited that cyano likes lower light. I am unsure if this is the case, or it can more readily get nutrients from places that happen to be in lower light and low flow areas (sand bottom, detritus buildup) but either way reef tanks have an appropriate light level to grow cyano very well.

Cyano can readily get nitrogen from the water column. I am going to assert that the average reef tank has enough in the water column for cyano, and to reduce it to limiting levels I would assume we would then be impacting our nitrifying bacteria. Even if we did that it appears it can form symbiotic relationships with other anaerobic bacteria to produce nitrogen (unknown if these exist in out tanks). Either way limiting nitrogen probably isn't going to work for cyano.

So we need to limit phosphorous. It has been asserted that it does not get P from the water column, so adding a phosphate reducer (such as GFO in a canister) would presumably not work.

1 - bare bottom tank. these tanks anecdotally don't get much cyano. If the cyano creates a mat so it can pull P from below, then it would make sense on a glass surface that cyano cant use hydrogen sulfide to break down metals, because there are not enough trace metals in glass. These tanks my get it on rocks.

2 - sand bottom and NO3 < 2 In this condition the cyano forms mats and creates an anaerobic space. It depends on other anaerobic bacteria to create hydrogen sulfide (correct??) and it is assumed that these other bacteria are common in our tanks, or at least the ability to form a mat and use hydrogen sulfide in our tanks is common and accepted. The hydrogen sulfide breaks down the trace metals in the substrate (or rocks) to produce P. By increasing NO3 to >2 then the creation of hydrogen sulfide is inhibited, and the cyano is limited in getting P.

3 - sand bottom and "dirty". In this condition it is inferred that cyano can use decomposing food, poo, etc in the sand as a source of P. I would like to know more about this condition, because even those who routinely clean their sand will have some organics trapped there. So is there a threshold for how much? Routinely cleaning the sand would help with this, but quantitatively stating how clean sand should be is tough. Is there also a threshold with NO3 with dirty sand? Can if form mats at any NO3 level if there are enough organics below the mat?

Thoughts? Corrections?

Cyano not not mind high light.

And this here should blow your mind a bit as far as phosphate rich systems.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-home-tank.296635/#post-3626579

chefjpaul · Nov 22, 2017

saltyfilmfolks said:
Cyano not not mind high light.

And this here should blow your mind a bit as far as phosphate rich systems.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-home-tank.296635/#post-3626579

Be cool to get the skeptical reefing Ross comments on this thread.

chefjpaul · Nov 22, 2017

saltyfilmfolks said:
Cyano not not mind high light.

And this here should blow your mind a bit as far as phosphate rich systems.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-home-tank.296635/#post-3626579

Since I am fallow for another month, I just dump a cap of flourish in the tank every day.
No cyano, no more dino, no test.
Stir up the sand, critters fed. All good.

Amazing how fast corals will fade to start color up.

Brew12 · Nov 22, 2017

Reef Able said:
This is a great write up and a great topic...Thank you OP for starting this amazing thread....i am dealing with a little cyano due to the fact of lowering nitrates to close to zero or under 1 and PO4 to 0.012 ...hence now i am in process of raising up the nitrates gradually with increased feeding to combat cyano...

If you don't mind, please post any success or failures you get with trying to raise your nitrates.

Brew12 · Nov 22, 2017

Lasse said:
I´m totally aware of this - in general - saltwater - nitrogen limitation - in freshwater - phosphorus limitation - and to that we have the Baltic there it could be whatever

I feel it is important to point out that our aquariums are all about hitting limits. "Non harmful" bacteria in our systems are carbon limited otherwise we would live with a constant bacteria bloom. Macro algae and coral are limited by slow reproduction rates. Microalgae, cyano, and dino's are kept in check by also being limited with some nutrient or other. The ones we worry about are obviously fast growers since they can cover a sand bed overnight. In some cases, what limits them is fairly obvious. What I can't figure out is what limits cyano and dino's in a system that has available nutrients.

I've spent countless hours trying to figure out how people can maintain stable NO3 and PO4 in their systems. Mine are almost always right at zero. But, I don't have a dino or cyano problem. I can actually get cyano to grow in 24 hours if I want and can clear it just as fast. Dino's react a little slower in both directions.

spiraling said:
So for cyano, it readily gets N out of the water column (as ammonia or other forms), and they rely on hydrogen sulfide, and forming an anaerobic mat, to break down the trace metals in your sand and rocks to obtain P. Am I closer?

Yes, some strains of cyano get N from the water column. Keep in mind that the most common strains of Cyano we worry about require very little N compared to many other bacteria in our systems. I believe this is why they thrive in otherwise nutrient starved systems. They don't need much N, and as Lasse pointed out, they can create their own P in a low NO3 system.

spiraling said:
And this discussion on cyano certainly refutes the part about adding phosphate remover and reinforces the add nitrates part, and absolutely confirms it thrives in a low nitrogen environment and maybe REQUIRE a low nitrate environment.

I wouldn't go there completely quite yet, but it does have some interesting possibilities. I would definitely agree that adding NO3 is the more reliable course of action.
I'll have to review some studies I have looked at but I believe Cyano can pull certain inorganic phosphorus from the water directly so may not need to resort to releasing P from the substrate. I need to do more homework on this though. I can say that there have been threads of people fighting cyano who have NO3 at 10ppm+ which would tend to back this up. I would take that with a grain of salt however since so many variables could exist.

mcarroll · Nov 22, 2017

saltyfilmfolks said:
So the spot I have cyano is at the bottom of the flow curl. It drops particulates there. Should I Change the flow or dose n or p?

None of the above – plant a compatible coral there!

"The problem is the solution."

saltyfilmfolks · Nov 22, 2017

mcarroll said:
None of the above – plant a compatible coral there!

"The problem is the solution."

Wanna see the shrooms and lepto I already put there?

Lol ,clearly we've been hanging out too long.

Brew12 · Nov 22, 2017

mcarroll said:
None of the above – plant a compatible coral there!

"The problem is the solution."

saltyfilmfolks said:
Wanna see the shrooms and lepto I already put there?

Lol ,clearly we've been hanging out too long.

lol

But there is just so much too this! When is the last time you guys have seen a bad case of cyano or Dino's in a heavily coral stocked system?

saltyfilmfolks · Nov 22, 2017

Brew12 said:
lol

But there is just so much too this! When is the last time you guys have seen a bad case of cyano or Dino's in a heavily coral stocked system?

From time to time. Kinda rare but it happens. Mostly limitation probs seem to present as diatoms , chrystopites and such. Most cyano locked cases I've seen and the one I had are co2 , high no/po from detritus and solid normal causality like new sand.
I had sheets man. Reeferfoxxs is the mind blower though. Ya gotta look at that.

Or do you mean my system? That's never.
Mine was a light coral load . I just increased the lightning and added corals and a hob refugium. And water changes. That's how my 30 started.

You'd also probably hate my testing regimine too.
I tested the 30 at the beginning of the rehab, threw up , and never tested again.

Myself , I enjoy the clouds. Pretty tough to count how many butterflies It takes to make them move.

Reef Able · Nov 23, 2017

Brew12 said:
If you don't mind, please post any success or failures you get with trying to raise your nitrates.

Yes no problem...i have stopped dosing nitrates since i was dosing only 1ml a day.

Reef Able · Nov 23, 2017

joeyhatch11 said:
Sodium Nitrate works wonders and simply adds Nitrates to the tank. This is what Im now doing in my 220 because I have 0 Nitrates and .06 phosphates. Granted I dont have any algae issues but I do have a TON of SPS that really benefit from the nitrates so Im looking to bump that up. Currently dosing 20ml a day of Sodium Nitrate

let us know your progress...

joeyhatch11 · Nov 23, 2017

Reef Able said:
let us know your progress...

Dosing 20ml a day seems to keep a great balance between 0 and just right. Using the RedSea Nitrate test kit Im barley registering any nitrates but when I was dosing 40-45ml a day I started to get some cyano so I backed off. I'd like to get my nitrates around 2ppm and keep my phosphates between .02-.05. But with 20ml a day keeping everything happy and healthy Im ok with that.

Lasse · Nov 23, 2017

Are you aware of this thread ?

Sincerely Lasse

MnFish1 · Nov 23, 2017

Brew12 said:
Just because you don't feel the need to understand the nutrient uptake of organisms in your system doesn't mean there isn't value to others. Since you see no value in understanding how it works and don't believe in the science anyway, why are you continuing to post?

You are putting up an argument I didnt make. I never said I dont need to feel the need to understand the nutrient uptake of organisms in my system.

What I said is that there is no evidence that the theories in your original post have any basis in science - or any relationship to keeping marine aquaria. The reason I continue to post is that the rest of the discussion is interesting. Just because you take some concepts from science and string them together in a post - doesn't mean your ideas are based in science or make sense. Please just respond to this 2 questions:

What is the evidence that using the total Nitrogen/Phosphorous levels in an organism tells one the best environment in wish to keep that organism (or prevent its growth). ?

The Redfield Ratio - which started this conversation out - is designed to be used in phytoplankton research. What leads to your idea that you can use this ratio in 'non-harmful bacteria' and make any conclusions? Could you total the CNP ratio of an elephant and decide what to feed it as compared to the CNP ratio of a salamander?

Im a scientist - why wouldn't I want to talk about science lol.

Brew12 · Nov 23, 2017

MnFish1 said:
You are putting up an argument I didnt make. I never said I dont need to feel the need to understand the nutrient uptake of organisms in my system.

What I said is that there is no evidence that the theories in your original post have any basis in science - or any relationship to keeping marine aquaria. The reason I continue to post is that the rest of the discussion is interesting. Just because you take some concepts from science and string them together in a post - doesn't mean your ideas are based in science or make sense. Please just respond to this 2 questions:

What is the evidence that using the total Nitrogen/Phosphorous levels in an organism tells one the best environment in wish to keep that organism (or prevent its growth). ?

The Redfield Ratio - which started this conversation out - is designed to be used in phytoplankton research. What leads to your idea that you can use this ratio in 'non-harmful bacteria' and make any conclusions? Could you total the CNP ratio of an elephant and decide what to feed it as compared to the CNP ratio of a salamander?

Im a scientist - why wouldn't I want to talk about science lol.

If you are a scientist, why do you not read the links provided? They have provided answers to both of these two questions.
If you are a scientist, why do you continue to use No True Scotsman arguments to refute studies that you obviously haven't read?
If you are scientist, why haven't you offered a scientific argument on why you cannot use the ratio of nutrient consumption to determine what bacteria need to survive and/or thrive?
You even use strawman arguments to try and make points.

I was warned by multiple people that you are well known as a troll. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. You have proven them correct. You have offered nothing of value to this thread. I am going to kindly ask that you cease posting on it.