PaulKreider
Valuable Member
No vendors have been mentioned in this thread, and I haven't seen a single post slamming on aquacultured corals. This thread has mainly been about freshly imported corals being outrageously priced.
These prices ... really?
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No vendors have been mentioned in this thread, and I haven't seen a single post slamming on aquacultured corals. This thread has mainly been about freshly imported corals being outrageously priced.
Your favorite vendors were slammed? Where? When battlecorals made comments on this thread?
When I read 3 pages there's no mention of any vendor in a negative way. So how is this slamming?
Please take the ten minutes out if your day to read the entire thread before voicing your assumptions. Thanks
When I read 3 pages there's no mention of any vendor in a negative way. So how is this slamming?
Please take the ten minutes out if your day to read the entire thread before voicing your assumptions. Thanks
dankreef
Well-Known Member
No intention of arguing with you but, if you follow this website you know about the vendors that are being mentioned indirectly. It comes down to what it is. People want a acro with a name on it because 99% of people don't know the scientific name of the different species of acros. So giving them a "stupid name" lets lay people put a identity on corals. Is it stupid for vendors to do? No you would be an idiot not to do it. Its up to the hobbyist to know what vendors corals actually carry value? Yes? I am driving 4 hours this weekend to pick up a RR package. I am going because RR corals are IMO some of the best looking to date found. Whats that worth to you? Whats it worth to me? Countless hours of enjoyment. Sometimes freshly imported corals turn out to be insane after they morph. Everyone does this hobby for a different reason. Some people are looking for diamonds.
broodc2
Active Member
This is pretty off topic but I'd be interested to learn the political leanings of each of us on here. They seem to line up with either conservative mentalities or liberal mentalities. You either think vendors are free to charge what they want and we are free to pay their high prices if we want or you think it's the vendor's responsibility to provide "fair" pricing so that everyone can enjoy these gems of corals that hit the market.
I'm on the free market side. And I'll even go as far as saying, I'm OK if a vendor uses photo shop to enhance their corals. Because ultimately the MARKET is a natural mechanism that will correct this behavior. It goes like this: I buy a super neon crazy coral from Vendor-X. It arrives and looks like brown poo - buyer beware. Result is, I never buy another coral from Vendor-X. This scenario plays out for every first time buyer for Vendor-X. Eventually, everyone knows Vendor-X doesn't deliver as promised and no one orders from them again. With no revenue, Vendor-X goes out of business. The vendors left at the end of the day will be those that offer true to life specimens, provide great customer service, and charge prices that the market is willing to continue to pay over and over again.
For the people who are trying to imply certain vendors inflate their prices and photo shop their corals, you would be making a more powerful statement by 1) never buying anything from them again and 2)not mentioning their names on forums or bashing their prices and practices. You'll find that they will just go away naturally. Buy saying "oh I'm too poor to buy these corals!" or "why would anyone in their right mind pay these prices!" you are stroking the egos of the people on here reading and in the hobby because they can afford to buy those corals. It's just as much about posting a picture of a rainbow colored piece of snot and proclaiming ownership or bragging to your local reefers about a new hot piece as it is about owning the coral itself! By starting threads like this, OP, I hate to say it, but you probably just perpetuated the buying and selling of high priced corals. And us continuing to post about it is doing the same as well.
I'm on the free market side. And I'll even go as far as saying, I'm OK if a vendor uses photo shop to enhance their corals. Because ultimately the MARKET is a natural mechanism that will correct this behavior. It goes like this: I buy a super neon crazy coral from Vendor-X. It arrives and looks like brown poo - buyer beware. Result is, I never buy another coral from Vendor-X. This scenario plays out for every first time buyer for Vendor-X. Eventually, everyone knows Vendor-X doesn't deliver as promised and no one orders from them again. With no revenue, Vendor-X goes out of business. The vendors left at the end of the day will be those that offer true to life specimens, provide great customer service, and charge prices that the market is willing to continue to pay over and over again.
For the people who are trying to imply certain vendors inflate their prices and photo shop their corals, you would be making a more powerful statement by 1) never buying anything from them again and 2)not mentioning their names on forums or bashing their prices and practices. You'll find that they will just go away naturally. Buy saying "oh I'm too poor to buy these corals!" or "why would anyone in their right mind pay these prices!" you are stroking the egos of the people on here reading and in the hobby because they can afford to buy those corals. It's just as much about posting a picture of a rainbow colored piece of snot and proclaiming ownership or bragging to your local reefers about a new hot piece as it is about owning the coral itself! By starting threads like this, OP, I hate to say it, but you probably just perpetuated the buying and selling of high priced corals. And us continuing to post about it is doing the same as well.
RichieT
Valuable Member
At $20 a frag sure you are right. However, At $500+ for a 1/2" frag I believe you may be incorrect.
As for this whole argument about costs and vendors charging what the market will support and hobbyists spending their money how they like. I think what we are starting to see and will continue to see is a trickle up effect. Exporters and wholesalers are NOT oblivious to the fact that vendors are making disgusting profit on some of these wild colonies. That will lead to price hikes coming out of the exporters wholesalers. Then we as the hobbyist get the resulting costs past down to us.
I don't think there is a solution to this short term. Long term these prices won't be able to be maintained and the high end vendors won't be able to move sufficient quantities and will have to drop prices. They will order less from suppliers and then the suppliers will eventually have to come back to reality on their prices
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Cool.... Now I know who to hit up in a few years when diamonds aren't trendy anymore and pick them up for $25.
dankreef
Well-Known Member
Nice reply. I think the political assumptions you make on your own are pretty correct, as I was relating this to the same thing in my mind. Its like saying no one should buy a Ferrari. Would you buy it if you could, heck yes. I wanted all these RR corals year ago when they were showing up. But was I going to pay $450 a frag? No way, but more power to the people that can, and then sell them to me a year later for 100$.
dankreef
Well-Known Member
Haha see you look at this all wrong. You should be finding out who is buying them for 500$ adding them to your contacts, and keeping in communication with them, as some of these will never be trendy, and don't exist because they are one of a kind
Haha see you look at this all wrong. You should be finding out who is buying them for 500$ adding them to your contacts, and keeping in communication with them, as some of these will never be trendy, and don't exist because they are one of a kind
Not really... If they're worth having they will get passed around. After a while everyone has a "green slimer" and I can get one anywhere for $10
Would I buy a Ferrari if I could? No. I would buy a vette that will smoke it for 1/4 the price.
The car analogy is wayyyyyyy off. Would you buy a Ferrari for $250k if you could afford it (yes) would you spend $8million on it because it has color shift paint? Probably not!
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I can't ignore a huge flawed argument/analogy which seems to be recurrent in this thread.
You can't bridge an analogy between coral retail prices and supercars! The reason a Ferrari, Bugatti, etc costs what it does is entirely due to the manufacturing techniques and, ultimately, that material selections. These automotive manufactures tailor to a luxury market segment, and because of this there may be a larger profit margin for them (sometimes - every Veyron sold is actually sold at a loss to Volkswagen) - but that's not a given! This is WAAAAY different and not applicable to the coral market - all corals originate from the same place! Of course, collection in some regions is more costly than others, but the scale of these types of differences is way out of bed to compare corals to cars.
And yes, that's the part of this thread which has bothered me the most.
You can't bridge an analogy between coral retail prices and supercars! The reason a Ferrari, Bugatti, etc costs what it does is entirely due to the manufacturing techniques and, ultimately, that material selections. These automotive manufactures tailor to a luxury market segment, and because of this there may be a larger profit margin for them (sometimes - every Veyron sold is actually sold at a loss to Volkswagen) - but that's not a given! This is WAAAAY different and not applicable to the coral market - all corals originate from the same place! Of course, collection in some regions is more costly than others, but the scale of these types of differences is way out of bed to compare corals to cars.
And yes, that's the part of this thread which has bothered me the most.
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+ 1 definitely agree
A common response has been "how much would it cost you to fly to a collection site and pick one up?"
To my knowledge most vendors aren't flying around the world hand selecting corals from the ocean either. And it seems far fetched to me that they would bring it back, smash it to bits and sell it as quickly as possible. I really thought the vendors that do collect are doing so in a sustainable manner and aquaculturing.
To my knowledge most vendors aren't flying around the world hand selecting corals from the ocean either. And it seems far fetched to me that they would bring it back, smash it to bits and sell it as quickly as possible. I really thought the vendors that do collect are doing so in a sustainable manner and aquaculturing.
I can't ignore a huge flawed argument/analogy which seems to be recurrent in this thread.
You can't bridge an analogy between coral retail prices and supercars! The reason a Ferrari, Bugatti, etc costs what it does is entirely due to the manufacturing techniques and, ultimately, that material selections. These automotive manufactures tailor to a luxury market segment, and because of this there may be a larger profit margin for them (sometimes - every Veyron sold is actually sold at a loss to Volkswagen) - but that's not a given! This is WAAAAY different and not applicable to the coral market - all corals originate from the same place! Of course, collection in some regions is more costly than others, but the scale of these types of differences is way out of bed to compare corals to cars.
And yes, that's the part of this thread which has bothered me the most.
+1.
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Davesgt
Happy Happy Happy
Im not seing how its waaaaay off, plus the analogy was purely to show a wish to reality ratio. Im not saying I believe the corals should be priced at a arm and a leg but in my opinion it gives something for the normal reefer to be drawn to and maybe work harder for. I know when I see something reef related I want I usually sell a few frags maybe do some tradeing and eventually it works out for me. Ohh yea id rather have a cobra than a Ferrari also.
ssdawood
Valuable Member
Haha see you look at this all wrong. You should be finding out who is buying them for 500$ adding them to your contacts, and keeping in communication with them, as some of these will never be trendy, and don't exist because they are one of a kind
Hey Bud me the name and contact of person selling all these RR stuff. I will see if he wants to ship. Thanks man.
Birddog
Hooked on Reefing
I could not agree more! I find this topic very interesting and to a degree a small, somewhat related example of what's wrong in our country. We all want something for nothing, or minimally to have the same opportunities to access the things we want... elect Obama and we all get health care for next to nothing. Put your young children in sports and we don't keep score anymore... we want them all to be winners. Cut me a break! Study hard in school, go to college work hard, get yourself into the workforce and continue to work hard and out compete everyone around you. If you have the $$ go out and buy the high priced coral, but don't judge a customer or vendor because they're willing to do business at a higher price point than you would or could. If someone wants to sell at "high prices" let them... the market place will determine the level of demand at the "high price" and the ultimate success of the vendor. I want a Flaming Bugatti... have I purchased one, NO! I hope some day the price will come down, but till then it will just be a wish. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and this is my $0.02. Please don' execute me!
