hybridazn
Acro killer.....
This thread is just making big circles. The same people saying the same things over and over. I'm all for a good discussion but this is like stated earlier, beating a dead horse.
These prices ... really?
- Thread starter reeffirstaid
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Nobody is going to pay 400.00 for a stupid Kenya Tree.
Sure an LFS could do that but they would soon drop the price back down to next to nothing because nobody would want it.
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A simple fix to stop the high prices is to stop buying the corals at those prices. Consumers control the market. That will never happen though because you will have that one guy that wants to have something no one else has which is a failed goal when collecting corals.
If these issues aren't directed at the vendor then these issues will fall on deaf ears. This is just like us trying to solve a murder case when we clearly know who did it but instead we decided to not name the murderer and hope he/she would just confess. I ask you revhtree, is R2R here to benefit the hobbyists or the vendors because it seems they have diplomatic immunity?
If these issues aren't directed at the vendor then these issues will fall on deaf ears. This is just like us trying to solve a murder case when we clearly know who did it but instead we decided to not name the murderer and hope he/she would just confess. I ask you revhtree, is R2R here to benefit the hobbyists or the vendors because it seems they have diplomatic immunity?
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Longnose Hawkfish
Valuable Member
Who cares about these high prices for certain select coral? Not all coral on the internet for sale is even this high. Go look on websites that sell coral and you can always find the cheap under 15$ frags. If a company wants to sell a 500$ coral let them. Maybe the guy who bought it might bring a frag to a frag swap and I might get it. If people don't want to pay money for some coral with a fancy name, then don't buy it. You don't need to insult them for doing it. Most vendors do not photoshop. Its not the end of the world because a couple "fancy" corals might be overpriced to certain people. Just go to your lfs and pick up a nice cheap frag. I don't have money for $200 corals. But they look nice, and I can understand why someone would choose to buy it. It is the buyers personal choice to spend the money on expensive corals. And to the person who said this thread is going around in circles, I think you are 100% right.
ReefMadScientist
Valuable Member
Nice try. We will not get into the naming game so you can win and have this thread closed down.
Sorry but no. We are not talking politics on this thread. Feel free to open your own thread.
ReefMadScientist
Valuable Member
Ok it appears some people have thrown this thread off a bit.
The POINT is NOT that prices are too much for coral. Lets set that straight. Capitalism proves to work and we can somewhat all agreed that we are okay with vendors charging "x" amount as long as people buy it.
Now here is the point. When PHOTOSHOP is added to saturate photo colorations to bump up the market price, that is where it is wrong. If you cannot see that, then I am sorry. As I mentioned in the past, I am happy that vendors or sellers are making a nice buck...but if they are making the coral look like its from a radioactive nuclear site; that is wrong.
As for shaming vendors, Rev made it CLEAR that we are NOT TO DO THAT. So people saying "oh my favorite vendor is being slammed" sorry but that is not true. We are talking in general on this thread. Rev WILL remove any comments that has vendors named in it with assumptions of wrong-doing.
The POINT is NOT that prices are too much for coral. Lets set that straight. Capitalism proves to work and we can somewhat all agreed that we are okay with vendors charging "x" amount as long as people buy it.
Now here is the point. When PHOTOSHOP is added to saturate photo colorations to bump up the market price, that is where it is wrong. If you cannot see that, then I am sorry. As I mentioned in the past, I am happy that vendors or sellers are making a nice buck...but if they are making the coral look like its from a radioactive nuclear site; that is wrong.
As for shaming vendors, Rev made it CLEAR that we are NOT TO DO THAT. So people saying "oh my favorite vendor is being slammed" sorry but that is not true. We are talking in general on this thread. Rev WILL remove any comments that has vendors named in it with assumptions of wrong-doing.
ReefMadScientist
Valuable Member
It must be Friday the 13th because we finally agree lol.
Daniel@R2R
Living the Reef Life
Agreed on all points. :thumb:
Capitalism works.
Photoshop should only be used to correct a picture so it looks like the coral actually does...NOT to enhance it beyond what it looks like.
No vendor naming allowed in this thread (not the point of the discussion anyway).
Lol. See I knew we could agree on some things.
And we both are able to have discussions without calling each other names. When we are on opposite sides of the argument
Longnose Hawkfish
Valuable Member
I understand all of your points of why Photoshop is bad. But the title for this thread implies that the price of corals is being discussed not the naming or photoshopping.
TJ's Reef
Valuable Member
Well, this certainly has been another one of those entertaining threads to say the least. The biggest laugh that I get from opponents of this or supporters of the'Uber Expensive' is for the money they're throwing out there they could WYSIWYG order 2-3 boxes of these maricultured colonies to be picked up at their local airport. I see very similar if not exactly the same extremely colorful Corals in nearly fist sized colonies going for $30-50 plus inbound freight charges. From my personal perspectives and having been in the hobby/industry I do think it very deceptive and unethical to import chop it, glue it, box it and pass it on so quickly. No one in this industry believes that more than a tiny percentage of these corals will actually hold their maricultured colors. So yeah, I have a problem with the status quo and think there is a serious need for change though not for what many of you might think. To me these over hyped chop shops are committing a sin in the truest sense of the meaning against these living creatures that were here many millenniums before us. The arrogance of man never ceases to amaze/apall me. What is justified to satisfy ones ego..........,....
And that's how I really feel... lol
Cheers, Todd
And that's how I really feel... lol
Cheers, Todd
Well said! And I have a very similar opinion. I could buy 5+ "ultra" colored wysiwyg maricultured colonies 3"-5" for what some of these 1/2" frags are fetching. And these that I speak of in particular have been in a captive system for at least 30 days while being observed closely by experts and veterinarians before they will consider putting them up for sale.
Kworker
Tang Lover
Some people do not care about price. This thread obviously illustrates that.
Kworker
Tang Lover
To give you a true example of my mindset, I believe the only way for us to save our environment is to remove ourselves out of the equation. The only way our planet won't suffer more damage from us is if we cease to exist. I agree, "the arrogance of man never ceases to amaze/apall me." However, for the first part of your argument I disagree.
You think its unethical that they make money the quickest way possible? Thats capitalism, and without capitalism we probably would not be keeping reef tanks. They pay their expenses the quickest when they move the product. How is it in reality their problem that the coral changes color? Maybe people should just be aware that they are buying a coral that can change its coloration than.
Unethical is using cyanide to catch fish. Well, now mostly illegal.
What some people are asking is ridiculous. How in the world are you going to run an efficient business if you tailor to all the needs of some of you guys who expect the middleman/vendor to take all the responsibility for live things? Than the prices would go up because they would have to have a larger facility to let the coral settle and make sure it keeps its color? Than that is another thing for you guys to complain about..
If that were required, how many operations would close because they either don't want to deal with the process, or simply can not do it? You can say "good I hope they close" No, no you don't. Because with less competition the higher the prices could potentially go. If you end up only having large operations there will be few, which would make the price increase.
If you had a store that QT'd all their fish for at least a month (I know there are the rare few who do), those fish are going to cost more than a store that brings it in and sells it ASAP. People don't complain that you have to take the risk of a fish getting a disease, your supposed to quarantine.
People have no right to complain if the coral comes exactly, or as close as possible to the picture it was on the vendors website. They did their part, they provided you a picture of what it looks like and you bought it when it looked like that. Again, if it were photoshopped I would agree its unethical.
Im a big advocate for mariculture and tank bred fish, so hopefully this all is not a debate in the future so we stop taking coral and fish from the ocean.
For the most part, this thread is going in circles and nobody is going to agree so its getting pointless.
OP
OP
reeffirstaid
Active Member
Well, this certainly has been another one of those entertaining threads to say the least. The biggest laugh that I get from opponents of this or supporters of the'Uber Expensive' is for the money they're throwing out there they could WYSIWYG order 2-3 boxes of these maricultured colonies to be picked up at their local airport. I see very similar if not exactly the same extremely colorful Corals in nearly fist sized colonies going for $30-50 plus inbound freight charges. From my personal perspectives and having been in the hobby/industry I do think it very deceptive and unethical to import chop it, glue it, box it and pass it on so quickly. No one in this industry believes that more than a tiny percentage of these corals will actually hold their maricultured colors. So yeah, I have a problem with the status quo and think there is a serious need for change though not for what many of you might think. To me these over hyped chop shops are committing a sin in the truest sense of the meaning against these living creatures that were here many millenniums before us. The arrogance of man never ceases to amaze/apall me. What is justified to satisfy ones ego..........,....
And that's how I really feel... lol
Cheers, Todd
I totally agree with those statements, 100%! Like I said earlier, if informed people want to flush their hard earned dough down the drain, and come out and stand up for businesses that use deceptive, unethical practices - to turn the coral marketplace into an overpriced, unsustainable, shadow of what it once was - more power to them. Multiple vendors are doing this, multiple vendors are using photoshop, and other programs to mis-represent corals and multiple aquarists are rushing in to defend them, or so it appears. What's even worse, some of these vendors ship responsibility for livestock they sell, out of their hands, the minute the FED EX or UPS man picks up the box. Even given that, people rush out to say they are the vendors that we like the most. I cannot consciously understand, how you can shop somewhere that charges 10+x for a product, shifts responsibility as quick as possible, and threatens the sustainability of the hobby you love, but after reading all the responses over 14 pages here, there are those, quite a few, that do. As long as they keep their wallets warm, the profits for these coral chop shops will soar, until eventually the pigeons comes home.
I am working with a network of aquarists on Facebook to bring these vendors to light - names, website URLS and all. We are setting this up in an informative manner, not to bash anyone, but point out blatant realities within the hobby.
And that's how I really feel... lol
Cheers, Todd
I totally agree with those statements, 100%! Like I said earlier, if informed people want to flush their hard earned dough down the drain, and come out and stand up for businesses that use deceptive, unethical practices - to turn the coral marketplace into an overpriced, unsustainable, shadow of what it once was - more power to them. Multiple vendors are doing this, multiple vendors are using photoshop, and other programs to mis-represent corals and multiple aquarists are rushing in to defend them, or so it appears. What's even worse, some of these vendors ship responsibility for livestock they sell, out of their hands, the minute the FED EX or UPS man picks up the box. Even given that, people rush out to say they are the vendors that we like the most. I cannot consciously understand, how you can shop somewhere that charges 10+x for a product, shifts responsibility as quick as possible, and threatens the sustainability of the hobby you love, but after reading all the responses over 14 pages here, there are those, quite a few, that do. As long as they keep their wallets warm, the profits for these coral chop shops will soar, until eventually the pigeons comes home.
I am working with a network of aquarists on Facebook to bring these vendors to light - names, website URLS and all. We are setting this up in an informative manner, not to bash anyone, but point out blatant realities within the hobby.
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cutterx23
Active Member
Again, so why don't you guys just do that and be happy? To each their own right? This is a hobby, there is no point in any of this. A. these threads aren't going to change anything. B. If you believe that because of the "chop shops" the oceans and reefs are being destroyed or harmed, then this probably isn't the hobby for you as EVERYTHING was at least once in the ocean and collected. That is an entirely different problem, and if you truly feel that way having a tank is a bit hypocritical. C. No man, woman, or child has any right to tell another person how and where to spend their money. If you want to live in that society move to a communist country and have everything decided for you. For the greater good right. haha
Again, as I said before this will all just circle back around again. I took a 4 page break (a day or two) from this thread and decided to peak back in to see where it was at by now and of course it was right back at the same point, nothing new, same people, same statements. Waste of time, and for those of you that feel the way I do, I implore you to not open this thread one more time, as "entertaining" as it is, we aren't helping anything. I say we all go back to enjoying our HOBBY.
johnanddawn
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I think its awesome that some people are willing to pay so much for corals - people like that keep the collectors searching for better and nicer stuff
Unfortunately some corals will be lost because of choppers trying to make a quick buck but some will end up in good hands and become available to others
For someone who has been reefing for more then 20 years the variety available today is unprecedented
Of course I would never even think about buying corals from some of these awesome photo editors, but because of them the rest of us get great corals from other venders for less money
I say let them spend silly money on chopped photoshopped corals, because of them we all get nicer looking stuff from reputable venders
Besides when they loose their overpriced, undersized, not ever going to color up like the pictures corals, they leave the hobby, and there's cheap equipment for sale too
Win win for common sense
Unfortunately some corals will be lost because of choppers trying to make a quick buck but some will end up in good hands and become available to others
For someone who has been reefing for more then 20 years the variety available today is unprecedented
Of course I would never even think about buying corals from some of these awesome photo editors, but because of them the rest of us get great corals from other venders for less money
I say let them spend silly money on chopped photoshopped corals, because of them we all get nicer looking stuff from reputable venders
Besides when they loose their overpriced, undersized, not ever going to color up like the pictures corals, they leave the hobby, and there's cheap equipment for sale too
Win win for common sense
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OP
OP
reeffirstaid
Active Member
cutter, from my perspective, my job as an aquarium consultant, and the reason I get phone calls and emails from aquarists, is to help people become successful aquarists. Being able to keep a particular species of coral or fish, isn't necessarily being a successful aquarist. My time in public aquaria made me understand the need for taking a multi-pronged approach to aquaria. Public aquariums and private aquariums face the same issues. I've yet to work with an aquarist, who didn't have some kind of budget. I'm sure there are people out there, though they aren't calling me, they are on the latest episode of Tanked. Many people entering the hobby don't quite know where to turn. Forums can help, but forums are better used by somewhat experienced aquarists, as there is no filter for information, some of it works, some of if doesn't, all of it pertains to individuals opinion or experience.
I have to weed through all that, and get down to the core of creating a successful aquarist, using what they have. These vendors are either hyping a commonly available product, making it appear out of the ordinary or exclusively rare, many are using computer software to enhance the appearance of what they are selling, and they are deliberately misleading people as to the availability of specimens. I know, and could name drop the coral shop, but we have been asked not to mention any of this site's sponsors. I will say, it was the same shop, in both instances. Furthermore, one of the outlets selling these ultra high priced, photoshopped frags, has gone out to nearly every review website on the internet and bad mouthed a very reputable, fair priced online vendor, because they post competition. Again, if folks want to defend these types of business practices, have at it.
At any rate, IME, this either confuses people regarding the cost of the reef aquarium hobby, or the misinformation they get, in the purchase of a super high priced frag, leads them to make very poor choices regarding their aquarium, that result in failure. I've had clients tell me, "I'm not buying that piece of equipment because I spent $ 600 on this rare frag from (insert a variety of vendor names here). They told me forget the skimmer, this awesome, rare, one of a kind coral, does better without a skimmer anyway."
Then they realize, what they get shipped, looks nothing like the picture, and is a coral frag they could have gotten for next to nothing, or free, at a frag swap. If people really believe this is good for the hobby and shouldn't be brought up into the light, again, that is their choice, just as it is the choice of aquarists to bright it up and make these vendors known throughout the hobby.
I have to weed through all that, and get down to the core of creating a successful aquarist, using what they have. These vendors are either hyping a commonly available product, making it appear out of the ordinary or exclusively rare, many are using computer software to enhance the appearance of what they are selling, and they are deliberately misleading people as to the availability of specimens. I know, and could name drop the coral shop, but we have been asked not to mention any of this site's sponsors. I will say, it was the same shop, in both instances. Furthermore, one of the outlets selling these ultra high priced, photoshopped frags, has gone out to nearly every review website on the internet and bad mouthed a very reputable, fair priced online vendor, because they post competition. Again, if folks want to defend these types of business practices, have at it.
At any rate, IME, this either confuses people regarding the cost of the reef aquarium hobby, or the misinformation they get, in the purchase of a super high priced frag, leads them to make very poor choices regarding their aquarium, that result in failure. I've had clients tell me, "I'm not buying that piece of equipment because I spent $ 600 on this rare frag from (insert a variety of vendor names here). They told me forget the skimmer, this awesome, rare, one of a kind coral, does better without a skimmer anyway."
Then they realize, what they get shipped, looks nothing like the picture, and is a coral frag they could have gotten for next to nothing, or free, at a frag swap. If people really believe this is good for the hobby and shouldn't be brought up into the light, again, that is their choice, just as it is the choice of aquarists to bright it up and make these vendors known throughout the hobby.
Daniel@R2R
Living the Reef Life
Hmm...while I can appreciate the motivation behind the idea, I'd say be careful of this. It could turn into a witch hunt VERY quickly if not controlled. Let's face it, there are some people who have no expectations of vendors (other than their goal to make money), but there are others who's expectations are absolutely unreasonable.
