ReefMadScientist
Valuable Member
Lol. Believe me, my 75g is stuffed right now and can't even squeeze a single plug in there. When I get my 150 running, thats a diff. story.
These prices ... really?
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Lol. Believe me, my 75g is stuffed right now and can't even squeeze a single plug in there. When I get my 150 running, thats a diff. story.
akitareefer
Active Member
I've actually been banned before off another forum for discussing my opinion on this subject. As an avid coralist and farmer of corals as I humbly like to call myself and to be able to see the wholesale side first hand these are my thoughts. The aspect becomes on these prices really is not just your opinion but the opinion of the group of hobbyist in general. The problem lies with us, get 100 hobbyist together and see how many of them are willing to pay for a 500 dollar 1/2 inch frag of some rainbow crazy or some 8 color insane acro. If even 10% say yes the damage is done it opens up the door on all ends from the divers collecting the specimens to the wholesalers to the retailers. It will and will always be a double sided sword so to speak.
The problem becomes both sides of the spectrum the consumer deems price however with that said what most people do not see or understand is the retailer take your favorite well named coral propagater does not matter who or what their name is because this is not a name blame game this is the truth. Coming from the otherside seeing how wholesale works. What most do not take into consideration is let's say "Chalice rainbow lava flow explosion" (made up name god I hope I don't see this somewhere now) lol this limited edition chalice that named vendor got. Well this vendor bought this chalice for lets say $1000 wholesale and it was 4x4 inches and is selling 1/2inch frags or per eye frags for 500 or more. What you didn't see is that this vendor also had to buy probably a minimum of $2000 dollars at least worth of other stock that they probably didn't want in their tanks nor do they have room for. Wholesalers are not stupid they know every retailer wants the best stock and they are not about to hand out their prized corals to someone that is only going to buy that single piece and nothing else. Now here comes the fun part so this named vendor now has his $1000 dollar chalice or any other insane coral for that matter that he/she will make the money on but what goes on with the $2000 in other stock it gets sold/given away at cost or for whatever because they don't want it they were made to take it. Now the tricky part is first off most of those insane pieces grow slow as molasses second each time that vendor cuts it is a risk to it dying and each day that vendor holds it is another risked day of a investment down the tube.
So with all that in consideration there are some reasons vendor do charge what they do now is it right imho yes/no but is it right for bugatti or ferrari to charge what they do for a car that does 0 to 60 in 3.2 seconds sure so I tend to ire on the side of the vendor not in principle pricing but the "Fact that people do whatever they want with their money its the consumers choice". Now with that said does it possibly hurt the rest of us that want that said chalice or sps or lps coral because of the crazy price yeah will we always be irritated that we cannot afford that insane piece because of its $500 dollar or more price tag sure but I'll tell you that you can blame just about everyone from your friend in the reef club that bought said piece all the way back to the divers themselves for it because in the end it's everyone's fault.
This is just my 2 cents take what you will I'm sure I might get bashed or whatever but this is just my humble opinion and insight. I'm not defending either side just some slight awareness/understanding of both sides don't favor one or the other.
The problem becomes both sides of the spectrum the consumer deems price however with that said what most people do not see or understand is the retailer take your favorite well named coral propagater does not matter who or what their name is because this is not a name blame game this is the truth. Coming from the otherside seeing how wholesale works. What most do not take into consideration is let's say "Chalice rainbow lava flow explosion" (made up name god I hope I don't see this somewhere now) lol this limited edition chalice that named vendor got. Well this vendor bought this chalice for lets say $1000 wholesale and it was 4x4 inches and is selling 1/2inch frags or per eye frags for 500 or more. What you didn't see is that this vendor also had to buy probably a minimum of $2000 dollars at least worth of other stock that they probably didn't want in their tanks nor do they have room for. Wholesalers are not stupid they know every retailer wants the best stock and they are not about to hand out their prized corals to someone that is only going to buy that single piece and nothing else. Now here comes the fun part so this named vendor now has his $1000 dollar chalice or any other insane coral for that matter that he/she will make the money on but what goes on with the $2000 in other stock it gets sold/given away at cost or for whatever because they don't want it they were made to take it. Now the tricky part is first off most of those insane pieces grow slow as molasses second each time that vendor cuts it is a risk to it dying and each day that vendor holds it is another risked day of a investment down the tube.
So with all that in consideration there are some reasons vendor do charge what they do now is it right imho yes/no but is it right for bugatti or ferrari to charge what they do for a car that does 0 to 60 in 3.2 seconds sure so I tend to ire on the side of the vendor not in principle pricing but the "Fact that people do whatever they want with their money its the consumers choice". Now with that said does it possibly hurt the rest of us that want that said chalice or sps or lps coral because of the crazy price yeah will we always be irritated that we cannot afford that insane piece because of its $500 dollar or more price tag sure but I'll tell you that you can blame just about everyone from your friend in the reef club that bought said piece all the way back to the divers themselves for it because in the end it's everyone's fault.
This is just my 2 cents take what you will I'm sure I might get bashed or whatever but this is just my humble opinion and insight. I'm not defending either side just some slight awareness/understanding of both sides don't favor one or the other.
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So if those are the "Good Guys"
Who are the "Bad Guys" that everyone is complaining about here?
I thought everyone Photoshoped thier Corals (At least the Big Names that do this as thier only source of Income).
Jimbo
Well-Known Member
What I find funny is how they are trying to make these SPS frags even smaller now ! More and more you're seeing them advertising 1/2"-3/4" ....come on! Then they want to charge you 2 grand AND pop you for shipping on top of that LOL. Crazy...... It's like they want to see how far they can go and still have people buy...
Kworker
Tang Lover
Exactly, the wholesalers are watching. So they know very well that there are a lot of people (including myself) that will not fall for or be willing to pay for a frag that is that overpriced. So that would mean they would bring it what actually sells, and if they don't they wont be around for very long.The general market determines the price, not the outliers.
Lets hit upon an example,
Say there is a car wholesaler for pre-owned Mercedes. Because he is easily moving pre-owned Mercedes S-class's does not mean he will increase the price of a C-class. Different products yield different prices, period. Even if that same seller were to take two exactly comparable C-class cars and get significantly more money for one than the other because the buyer is foolish enough to not understand the product they are buying and pays the price advertised.
If he were to lie to the face of the buyer and say it is in fact something it is not, than that would be fraud and I would agree that it should not be allowed. (If he were to label it as a S-class when it is really a C-class)
However, people need to remember that we live in a capitalist society.
Going still with the car theme, people often bash Richard Rawlings for bidding people so low on the cars they are selling to him. The reality of it is, nobody is holding a gun to their head making them sell the car. They are willing to sell it for that price, and who are we to determine how much/little the transaction should be? Who are we to determine what these vendors will sell the frags at?
There are other factors that could increase the average price of coral. There are a lot of factors that could determine that. The high priced frags IMHO are just outliers that have minimal effect on the overall market.
akitareefer
Active Member
No one is going to name anyone this isn't about bashing specific people or vendors its a generalization of market. As to chop shopping and photo shopping the slide of a finger on saturation, the cut of a frag saw a day after recieveing is just a no no in my book however photos shot under 20k preset mode on a radion or photo's shot 20k mh or whatever have you are rarely manipulated in lightroom adobe. Is there photo shopping that goes on OMG YES I know I've seen what you can do with some good ole saturation however with that said is there anyone place to point a finger I sure won't be the one to do it. Photos Shot with expensive camera's and lens half the time are shot with good white balancing and a whole nother 9 yards worth of jargain that goes into taking coral photography you can read the million threads I have in order to take the best legit photos you can with that in mind. Most of these big named guys don't lie don't photo shop their corals they just take very good pictures and white balance accordingly. I will name only two names because they are who I have experience with as well as their corals thus it is my humble opinion I've met jason fox at Lear and I have some of Cornbreds stuff as well and their stuff needs no photo editing what you see on there sites and what you will get is the exact piece as long as you have the same lighting I.E radions or t5 or mh whatever have you and if you don't its still pretty **** close as long as your not running awful lighting setups. There stuff is just that good. As to quality of vendors they are truly amazing and kind people their actually a bunch of really cool guys and they stand behind their stuff 10 fold read up on them see what they do to get the stuff they get. I read Jason Fox's thread somewhere awhile back where he went diving in a 3rd world country in areas without running water and great amenities for weeks. That is dedication in my book. But Those are the only two I have experience with and can full all out say nothing wrong let alone I love my corals from them honestly I'm not sure how photo-shopping would help some of the chalices i have from them they already look unreal. Just another 2 cents
Kworker
Tang Lover
I do agree about photoshopping though, its ridiculous to think people would do that. Yet another reason that I enjoy going to a store to pick up coral rather than order online.
Although, obviously we have certain online vendors we could trust.
Although, obviously we have certain online vendors we could trust.
ReefMadScientist
Valuable Member
Exactly.
A few changes in FoNt and a few CoLOR ChanGES with characters (~,<:>,) and few teenager words such as (EPIC, SASSY, Tubular Skirt paly) = $1k.
Kworker
Tang Lover
:heh:
reefaboo
Valuable Member
very Well said
if not the price why would a vendor go to the depths to find those amazing pieces .. they aren't doing community service for sure ..
for the op, why get a 30 dollar frogspawn/ hammer when you can find Pulsing Xenia for $5 .....
to each their own, if you think its worth the price - you pay .. if you cant afford the price - you wait till the price comes down.
i don't see any thing wrong at all with Vendors pricing their corals high .. its theirs to sell and they can sell for what ever they want, provided they get a buyer and they certainly seems to do
if not the price why would a vendor go to the depths to find those amazing pieces .. they aren't doing community service for sure ..
for the op, why get a 30 dollar frogspawn/ hammer when you can find Pulsing Xenia for $5 .....
to each their own, if you think its worth the price - you pay .. if you cant afford the price - you wait till the price comes down.
i don't see any thing wrong at all with Vendors pricing their corals high .. its theirs to sell and they can sell for what ever they want, provided they get a buyer and they certainly seems to do
OP
OP
reeffirstaid
Active Member
I agree, the intent of this thread isn't to bash people. It's more to discuss the implications of pricing on the hobby. There is no vendor that should photoshop their corals. That would be like selling a rusted up junker, and photoshopping out the dents and scratches. If wholesale is the problem, it needs to be addressed, especially if wholesalers are selling wild caught corals and fish. The resource is limited, why would you sell a vendor something they don't want, or don't need. Sadly, I don't have a tremendous amount of sympathy for vendors. If you make the choice to get into the reef aquarium industry, you also make the choice in how you conduct business. As a business owner, I deal with licences, fees, insurance, etc. It's all very expensive, and time consuming to get. Though, I don't go out and gouge my clients for our services. There's a price to doing business, and a margin of profit. It's when you go insane with your profit, that you become greedy, and the dollar over-rides customer satisfaction, and making a fair sale. This causes market increases that shift a hobby, like reef aquariums, into the hands of the rich.
You have to also remember, there has been a trend in reef aquariums, where wealthy people are installing massive aquariums in their homes. I've worked with people, and money was no object. They filled their tanks with 500-1000 dollar corals, without a second thought. Sooner or later, if it keeps up, these inflated prices will make their way down the line, and coral overall will become massively expensive.
For me, if a vendor is expecting a customer to pay their bills, (such as $ 2000 for extra livestock) in order to get their hands on an awesome piece of coral, that isn't an appropriate way to do business, and isn't focusing on an honest and open sale. I had a landlord do that once, raising office rent per month in order to pay for improvements to his other properties. Corals have steadily increased in price, as I can remember a day when most corals could be purchased for $40 or less. Shops I once frequented that sold all their corals for $40 now want $ 125+ for green star polyps.
In the end, it's simple greed. Having a business in the hobby you love isn't enough. Making enough to live comfortably with said business isn't enough. Now you need to get rich, by squeezing every last dime out of the consumer, or catering only to consumers who can fork out the dough. If it keeps up, this mentality will spread, and everywhere you look, corals will be super, rare, and have fancy names, with equally fancy price tags.
You have to also remember, there has been a trend in reef aquariums, where wealthy people are installing massive aquariums in their homes. I've worked with people, and money was no object. They filled their tanks with 500-1000 dollar corals, without a second thought. Sooner or later, if it keeps up, these inflated prices will make their way down the line, and coral overall will become massively expensive.
For me, if a vendor is expecting a customer to pay their bills, (such as $ 2000 for extra livestock) in order to get their hands on an awesome piece of coral, that isn't an appropriate way to do business, and isn't focusing on an honest and open sale. I had a landlord do that once, raising office rent per month in order to pay for improvements to his other properties. Corals have steadily increased in price, as I can remember a day when most corals could be purchased for $40 or less. Shops I once frequented that sold all their corals for $40 now want $ 125+ for green star polyps.
In the end, it's simple greed. Having a business in the hobby you love isn't enough. Making enough to live comfortably with said business isn't enough. Now you need to get rich, by squeezing every last dime out of the consumer, or catering only to consumers who can fork out the dough. If it keeps up, this mentality will spread, and everywhere you look, corals will be super, rare, and have fancy names, with equally fancy price tags.
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ReefMadScientist
Valuable Member
It's not greed it's business
They
Could care less that they are part of a hobby. They opened up a store to
Make money plain and simple. Just like any other business in the world. This mentality already spread over a 1000 years ago. When one cavemen was able to sell
Something to his neighbor.
This is an expensive hobby to begin with and a luxury hobby. This hobby is fueled by people with expendable income. Even if it's just a little but of income or 20k a month. You can go to any lfs in the country with a $20 bill
And walk out with some form of coral
For your tank. You may not have $10
You may by have 10k to spend. But some do. And of course vendors are going to cater to them with high priced pieces.
I am tired of everyone trying to set prices they can afford. I may not be able to afford 2k frags but how
Can I fault someone that can. They worked for it. It's their money and can spend it how they want. It's been this way for the last 15 years I have been in the hobby and it's not going to change. There isn't any reason it should.
Just remember. You may think of your lfs as a friend. But he thinks of you as a paycheck. Just like any other business
For sale: cherry Camaro. Wysiwyg! $20,000
So you plop down that $20,000 and wait for delivery.
You receive this and are told it looks like that because you have different lighting
For sale: cherry Camaro. Wysiwyg! $20,000
So you plop down that $20,000 and wait for delivery.
You receive this and are told it looks like that because you have different lighting
Very good analogy. Made me laugh and cry at the same time.
I cried for the Rusty Camaro BTW
OP
OP
reeffirstaid
Active Member
Very true Pete polyp, and gouging people isn't doing business, at least not by everyone's standard. I've been in business for a long time, and dealt with many. You don't have to gouge, or inflate your prices to ridiculous new heights, to be a successful business. When the greed sets in, it often causes a lot of fallout within an industry. Putting yourself in the market to cater to a wide variety of people, is a far better business model, than trying to either shake the pennies out of someone, or only cater to someone with a pocket full of quarters.
Here in MD where I live, our ski resort got so expensive, local skiers couldn't afford it. The owners allowed the hotel to go pot, in hopes of encouraging visitors to buy multi-million dollar homes. Everything was named exclusive, luxury and prestige. Any program for local skiers, that offered reasonable rates, was shut down. Yearly passes doubled, then tripled, than quadrupled in price. Yes, some homes sold. Yes, many passes sold. The local government decided to get in on the action. They took property taxes to a new level, and you needed special permits to do anything. Finally, the millionaires they were serving started to question the value of all this luxury. Homes went up for sale. The long lines of skiers got thinner. Soon the resort's greedy owners were in chapter 11. The resort was taken over by a large land corporation, who has cut the price of the lots, and lift tickets in half, or less. They still can't sell many of either.
I can see this high priced coral situation going the same way. Corals get ultra, rare, with fancy names, and super high price tags. The government sees a chance to cash in, as they watch citizens dropping Benjamins on small pieces of a natural resource. Soon they start charging fees to get a reef aquarium permit, saying it's to protect the environment. Eventually, even the wealthy reefers question the value of their ultra corals, and their aquarium ownership permits. The middle of the road reefers were pushed out by the prices long ago. The whole thing collapses, and the hobby crumbles to the ground.
Where if the approach was fairness, education and value - it could be sustained forever. I see vendors charging these outrageous prices, more interested in their own quick buck than the future, or sustainability of this hobby.
Here in MD where I live, our ski resort got so expensive, local skiers couldn't afford it. The owners allowed the hotel to go pot, in hopes of encouraging visitors to buy multi-million dollar homes. Everything was named exclusive, luxury and prestige. Any program for local skiers, that offered reasonable rates, was shut down. Yearly passes doubled, then tripled, than quadrupled in price. Yes, some homes sold. Yes, many passes sold. The local government decided to get in on the action. They took property taxes to a new level, and you needed special permits to do anything. Finally, the millionaires they were serving started to question the value of all this luxury. Homes went up for sale. The long lines of skiers got thinner. Soon the resort's greedy owners were in chapter 11. The resort was taken over by a large land corporation, who has cut the price of the lots, and lift tickets in half, or less. They still can't sell many of either.
I can see this high priced coral situation going the same way. Corals get ultra, rare, with fancy names, and super high price tags. The government sees a chance to cash in, as they watch citizens dropping Benjamins on small pieces of a natural resource. Soon they start charging fees to get a reef aquarium permit, saying it's to protect the environment. Eventually, even the wealthy reefers question the value of their ultra corals, and their aquarium ownership permits. The middle of the road reefers were pushed out by the prices long ago. The whole thing collapses, and the hobby crumbles to the ground.
Where if the approach was fairness, education and value - it could be sustained forever. I see vendors charging these outrageous prices, more interested in their own quick buck than the future, or sustainability of this hobby.
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