This gives reefing a bad image

[recess62]

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2017/09/27/live-corals-smuggling-pringles-cans/

Hope this is no one from here

 

[Newb73]

Is it legal if it's it foir resale but for your personal stock if it's banned for trade but not endangered?

 

[nautical_nathaniel]

If you bought them at a store or got them from a fellow hobbyist, odds are there will be no issue in owning or reselling them.

However, some corals are protected and you cannot own them, like the corals the guys in the story were caught with. Sadly they weren't named or pictured in the article.

If you're here in Florida and our Fish and Wildlife Commission catches you with Florida Staghorn or Elkhorn acropora, you're going to jail for a few days. They are highly endangered and protected in Florida waters. You can however collect some gorgonians and anemones since they are more plentiful and not protected.

Just use your best judgement with buying/selling/trading corals, if it's something you've never heard of, research it extensively, you should be doing that anyways to know how well it will do in your tank. If your sources say it's endangered or protected, then I would pass on it for now. That rule doesn't apply to some Australia corals since the Aussie government grants quota permits to licensed commercial coral collectors. Anything sold by your LFS should not be on the "get you in trouble" list.

Here's a good list of Atlantic corals you shouldn't have: http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/species/invertebrates/corals.htm

 

[SashimiTurtle]

They smuggled in endangered corals from Vietnam and were trying to get them across the Mexican border. Just buy your corals from one of the reputable online vendors on here, or LFS and you won't have any problems. They aren't going to risk their businesses for an endangered species.

 

[Rufus’ goofs]

Who has a branching frogspawn? I do.

Euphyllia paradivisa. It's also on the noaa list that was posted a few response above.

This is a very commonly kept and traded coral. Are we keeping and trading a different species?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphyllia_paradivisa

 

[Newb73]

I believe we should actually be captive propagating as many endangered corals as possible.

If any of these go extinct in the wild such a systemic captive population might stand a chance a reseeding the populations and saving them.

I know some aqua farms actually just seed shallow corals and grow them in their natural habitats anyway.

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

FFR.. you are not allowed to possess T&E species regardless if they were captive raised or you got them before they were listed.

There have been several Asian Arrowanas seized from owners in the US after they were listed. Which is unfortunate... your sitting in your living room and fish and game people knock on the door and tell you they are taking your fish..

But this is one if those cases of...."how do they know how and when you got it".

At any rate, those coral smugglers are friggin dirt bags in my book.

 

[cmcoker]

FFR.. you are not allowed to possess T&E species regardless if they were captive raised or you got them before they were listed.

There have been several Asian Arrowanas seized from owners in the US after they were listed. Which is unfortunate... your sitting in your living room and fish and game people knock on the door and tell you they are taking your fish..

But this is one if those cases of...."how do they know how and when you got it".

At any rate, those coral smugglers are friggin dirt bags in my book.

Agree, my grandpa owned a bbq restaurant, he had some mounted birds, deer, hog, etc around the restaurant. Had them for decades, some of the owls ended up on endangered list, fish and wildlife came and took them. He didn't get into trouble, but they were confiscated..

 

[A Toadstool Leather]

There is hardly a need to smuggle corals anyways. There is such a massive variety of captive propagated corals. There are plenty of nice acros that are not endangered. I dont even think there is much need to collecting corals in general.

 

[Newb73]

FFR.. you are not allowed to possess T&E species regardless if they were captive raised or you got them before they were listed.

There have been several Asian Arrowanas seized from owners in the US after they were listed. Which is unfortunate... your sitting in your living room and fish and game people knock on the door and tell you they are taking your fish..

But this is one if those cases of...."how do they know how and when you got it".

At any rate, those coral smugglers are friggin dirt bags in my book.

Those confiscated endangered livestock probably ended up dead in the hands of non reef enthusiasts....

 

[A Toadstool Leather]

Who has a branching frogspawn? I do.

Euphyllia paradivisa. It's also on the noaa list that was posted a few response above.

This is a very commonly kept and traded coral. Are we keeping and trading a different species?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphyllia_paradivisa

Most of the frogspawns in the hobby are euphyilla paradivisia. Those are the branching ones. Honestly the import of threatened corals should stop, but people should still be able to own them if they got them before.

 

[andrewkw]

It's not the species it's the location. Vietnam does not export hard corals. At least they didn't before my information could be out of date.

Years ago Lfs used to get 100s and 100s of clams from Vietnam but only clams. Even those days appear gone.

 

[A Toadstool Leather]

It's not the species it's the location. Vietnam does not export hard corals. At least they didn't before my information could be out of date.

Years ago Lfs used to get 100s and 100s of clams from Vietnam but only clams. Even those days appear gone.

Arent all clams in the hobby captive bred? I believe taking clams is now illegal.

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

Those confiscated endangered livestock probably ended up dead in the hands of non reef enthusiasts....

yeah... that is what happens to them. People who dedicate their careers to protecting wildlife hand confiscated livestock over to "non-reef enthusiasts".

They actually end up at public aquariums and research facilities. These are places that have an entire staff that ensures their health. Not some "enthusiast" with a tank in his living room and a forum subscription.

sorry if this is an agro response but the ignorance level in this country has become an epidemic.

 

[Newb73]

yeah... that is what happens to them. People who dedicate their careers to protecting wildlife hand confiscated livestock over to "non-reef enthusiasts".

They actually end up at public aquariums and research facilities. These are places that have an entire staff that ensures their health. Not some "enthusiast" with a tank in his living room and a forum subscription.

sorry if this is an agro response but the ignorance level in this country has become an epidemic.

Really.

I wasn't aware the agents for Fish and Game had college degrees in biology/marine biology and access to large systems with close to $15,000 in equipment alone in the systems they have access to like myself and many here . Perhaps they have degrees in chemistry also and literally wrote the book on reef chemistry like Randy H? I assume they have large tanks close to 100g for QT, large tanks 250g to 400g for stability and tanks over 50g for dz treatment. They have all that at their local office? I do... Have an assignment where they are with their tanks all day long and have medical experience which allowed them to easily understand most reef chemistry and biological care including the ability to calculate drip rates in their heads and under stand immediate cause and effect reactions on their tanks in correlation with 25 years clinical experience? No? I do...

I suppose they dedicate most of their spare time...at least 5 to 10 hours per week in continuing ed. Learning chemistry, biology and the latest trends in the hobby? No? Well then they must spend all their personal spending money on the hobby up to hundreds PER week on proper care and maintenance? No, I don't suppose that's realistic for their income levels, but it's a reality for many here....with some spending into the tens of thousands or even six figures... Perhaps they are expert fabricators and experts at wiring, acrylic work, plumbing and all manner of do it yourself projects? Yea no...higly doubt it.

I was under the impression those agents were barely one step ahead of someone with a high school diploma and a few weeks training.

My brother worked for fish and wildlife in Florida as a retired Airforce mechanic. He had a high school education and his reading and writing levels were probably on a 5th to 7th grade level.....

Joking aside, it's good they end up in public aquarium.

Do you know which aquariums they end up At? I'd like to put them on my "to visit" list.

I would also like to visit the fish and game holding facilities and meet these agents. They sound impressive.

 

[Newb73]

yeah... that is what happens to them. People who dedicate their careers to protecting wildlife hand confiscated livestock over to "non-reef enthusiasts".

They actually end up at public aquariums and research facilities. These are places that have an entire staff that ensures their health. Not some "enthusiast" with a tank in his living room and a forum subscription.

sorry if this is an agro response but the ignorance level in this country has become an epidemic.

"Some departments require the completion of an associate’s degree (60 credit hours), although many require a bachelor’s degree at minimum. A few state wildlife departments accept experience in lieu of education."
https://www.gamewardenedu.org

^^^^^Impressive.....they have hiring requirements about equal to what it takes to be a nurses aid.

Consider me corrected. They absolutely must be on the same levels with enthusiast who have been keeping these fish for 20 plus years (in my case since 1989....in Paul B's case since about 1975).....especially since their minimum age requirement would put the entry agent as having been born in 1996...

^^^^Sarcasm

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

yeah Really "newb"

So you think that the USFW department doesn't have access to professionals in the industry? They are just a bunch of high school flunkies that have to take everything the confiscate home or to the office?

Yeah, you are probably right. I'm pretty sure that federal agents don't have any protocols on these things and don't have access to the resources it takes to care for them.

Your probably right defending the people that steal endangered coral out of their natural habitat and smuggle them in god dang Pringles cans.

I'm certain now that you have quite a bit of experience in these matters and obviously know what's best. I mean.. you volunteered that you have a year under your belt in September of 2016. Obviously a master of aquatic husbandry with facilities at your disposal neccessary to care for seized endangered wildlife. I'm surprised you were not contacted?

<sarcasm>

 

[Newb73]

yeah Really "newb"

So you think that the USFW department doesn't have access to professionals in the industry? They are just a bunch of high school flunkies that have to take everything the confiscate home or to the office?

Yeah, you are probably right. I'm pretty sure that federal agents don't have any protocols on these things and don't have access to the resources it takes to care for them.

Your probably right defending the people that steal endangered coral out of their natural habitat and smuggle them in god dang Pringles cans.

I'm certain now that you have quite a bit of experience in these matters and obviously know what's best. I mean.. you volunteered that you have a year under your belt in September of 2016. Obviously a master of aquatic husbandry with facilities at your disposal neccessary to care for seized endangered wildlife. I'm surprised you were not contacted?

<sarcasm>

1) No jack azzz, my 225g was 1 year old in 2016. (If you are keeping track, I joined here in 2012, been keeping salt since 2000, softies since 2002, sps/lps only since 2011, FW since 89). So why "Newb"? Because I am constantly learning so I am a perpetual newb. Show me the guy who says he has now learned it all and I will show you a liar!! But way to go on the name misdirect there Sherlock Holmes...
2) Show me where I defended the smugglers above....i don't recall defending them.
3) I went to some of the Wild life/Game job boards and saw no such requirements. I am not saying they don't, but I couldn't find it. If you can locate it, place a link to the reference please. Perhaps they employee as consultants on an as needed basis and not full time? I would be interested in knowing who they use.


Also i was going off YOUR quote.

""fish and game people" knock on the door and""

......."fish and game people" are not scientists (not if you go by their job board).

 

[Fishmanz]

Well it was a vendor that owns reefers cove, Jorge Vasquez. Next trade show thank him and say hi!

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

Your comment was "... they probably end up dead in the hands of non-reef enthusiasts"

Thus insinuating that the people seizing them have no idea what they are doing.

I never said that USFW officers were experts in wildlife care, they are not, they are law enforcement officers. There ARE however PLENTY of experts and biologists at the USFW service. I'm sorry that your "job search" didn't turn up a wealth of information concerning the education and expertise of USFW staff.

But if you want to believe that confiscated wildlife end up in the hands that people that don't know anything about them then so be it.

I however have a master's degree in wildlife science and spent the first 5 years of my career working with wildlife enforcement officials and conservation groups throughout central Asia. I can assure you that these folks take both illegal harvesting and animal welfare VERY seriously.

To suggest that they are just willy nilly with their care is simply naive.