This hobby is just impossible!

[HBtank]

If I turn off the scrubber, then nutrients will spiral out of control from all the feeding.

Why should I feed the fish when I can feed the coral?

Dosing nitrates and phos is just keep the ratio relatively balanced. If nitrates are high and phos are low, then I dose phos, and vice versa.

Yes, the Hanna salinity tester is calibrated monthly, which is just about as often as I use it.

kH is 8. I haven't tested for Ca and Mg since these are all softies. kH is consistenly around 8. Used Hanna checker of kH.

Just an FYI, many people do not broadcast or target feed corals at all withstanding very specific LPS species.

You are basically feeding your scrubber and wasting money. Remove the scrubber and stop dosing/feeding and see where things stabilize. Your GSP, mushrooms and Zoas do not need anything but light and low levels of N/P to do extremely well..

 

[HBtank]

I think this is just a troll thread to wind up the reefer community.

Yeah looks like it.

 

[92Miata]

Coral can/will be bleach when overstressed. I should of worded my statement better.

Looking at his numbers for N and P and the pictures of coral. Looks like too much light intensity, IMO. Pic of a HAPPY shroom for the OP!

Bleaching from any sort of stress looks exactly the same. It's expelling zooxanthellae. You can't determine that without context.

Again, he's running a single AI prime on a short lighting schedule, with blue channels maxing out at 25%, and whites for 2 hours at 10%. He might as well be using a cellphone flashlight at this point.

He doesn't have too much light. They're probably peaking at 40ppfd.

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

These are good points too. I guess I'm fortunate that I have a 90 gallon tank so I get the best of both worlds. I still feel that getting the biggest tank you can afford as a newbie is the best way to start. Most new reefers are going to make mistakes that might make things harder in a larger tank but utterly crash a small tank. Plus one can have much more enjoyable aquascapes and far more corals, colonies at that. Just my opinion though.

I disagree completely. A newbie should get the Fluval 13.5, before running out and spending a lot of money on a whim. If that is successful then lay out the larger investment. How many people have ended up getting frustrated and quitting after spending thousands of dollars? How is killing 90 gallons of livestock a better out come than 13.5 gallons? When a 5 gallons bucket and a properly calibrate refractometer is all that is required to maintain a stable nano reef.

The OP of this post is not the first and won't be the last newbie to rush into trying to do to much and cause more harm than good. And, alot of that has to do with seasoned reefers pushing this idea that you need the largest tank you can afford.

 

[EugeneVan]

I love when ppl say the ugly stage. Lol.

This is absolutely nonsense. The evaporation rate is the same in 10 gallons as in 200 gallons. And the water to salt ratio is the same. In your 200 gallons you may have lost 2 gallons, while in 10 gallons you would have lost 1/10 of a gallon.

My 5 gallon doesn't have an ATO and I only top it off by hand every few days.

Please help me with the math my friend. Like you said, let's assume the evaporation rate is the same between 10 gal and 200 gal which assume it is 2 gal. In the 200 gal tank, 2 gal water lost due to evaporation is only 0.1% water lost. In the 10 gal tank, 2 gal water lost due to evaporation is 20% lost. And please, I am not hear to agrue with you. I am just saying in my case, I live in a country with 7 months of winter and the water evaporate from my tank is just unbelievealbe.

 

[Lineatus]

Please help me with the math my friend. Like you said, let's assume the evaporation rate is the same between 10 gal and 200 gal which assume it is 2 gal. In the 200 gal tank, 2 gal water lost due to evaporation is only 0.1% water lost. In the 10 gal tank, 2 gal water lost due to evaporation is 20% lost. And please, I am not hear to agrue with you. I am just saying in my case, I live in a country with 7 months of winter and the water evaporate from my tank is just unbelievealbe.

I assume he’s meaning rate per area is the same

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

With all due respect, I think you are missing the point. I totally agree with you that things like water changes and daily maintenance are easier but that's not what we are talking about. If you are used to taking care of a larger tank, a nano shouldn't pose any problems and you'll find many things about it to be easier overall. But what we are concerned with here is stability, the most important part of reefkeeping. When mistakes are made (which there inevitably will be, especially with someone who is new), things go south much easier/quicker on a small water volume compared to a large one. This is what people are talking about when they say it's easier to start the hobby with a larger tank. Personally, I think something like a 50-70g range is the sweet spot. Small enough to not be overwhelmed physically or financially, but enough water volume (especially if you add a sump) to help keep things relatively stable.

Mistakes are made when you try to run a Nano like a 50-90 gallon tank. If you can screw up changing 3 gallons of water on the same day every week, and hand pouring in fresh water every few days; then this hobby isn't for you. And, doing it on a larger scale isn't going to be easier.

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

Please help me with the math my friend. Like you said, let's assume the evaporation rate is the same between 10 gal and 200 gal which assume it is 2 gal. In the 200 gal tank, 2 gal water lost due to evaporation is only 0.1% water lost. In the 10 gal tank, 2 gal water lost due to evaporation is 20% lost. And please, I am not hear to agrue with you. I am just saying in my case, I live in a country with 7 months of winter and the water evaporate from my tank is just unbelievealbe.

Why would you loose 2 gallons out of a 10 gallon aquarium? Evaporation is a function of surface area. You are having problems with your math because you are trying to calculate an equal volume of evaporation between the two.

When the correct answer is an equal rate of evaporation. Both volumes of 10 gallons and 200 gallons will loose 0.1%(sic) to evaporation if the climate, water temperature, and volume to surface area ratio are equal.

 

[Aqua Man]

Again, he's running a single AI prime on a short lighting schedule, with blue channels maxing out at 25%, and whites for 2 hours at 10%. He might as well be using a cellphone flashlight at this point.

Lol… it seemed high to me until I actually looked at where my light is at! Here is my schedule for 1 prime, don’t remember where I started on intensity. Had been working some of the channels up very slowly. Im not planning on going any higher. Tank is only 11 inches deep.

Coral growing and happy so far! Still learning new things all the time!

 

[Crustaceon]

I really wish there was a setting where people were only able to start with "New Reefer Starter Pack" comprised of a twenty gallon tank, heater, sufficient lighting, properly-sized circulation pump, salt mix, rodi system/access to rodi water, refractometer, gravel vacuum, algae pad, old toothbrush, a bucket, sand, cured live rock and starter bacteria AND had to use only this equipment for the first year of reefing. If you can't get it to work after adding a fish or two and coming here for advice when needed, then I don't know what to tell you. This hobby is as hard or as easy as you want it to be. I try to make things easier. So... The only things I think you need to monitor as a beginner in this hobby is salinity and temperature. I stand by that statement and a lot of people here will freak out because they fixate and fuss to no end without realizing most of what we do is keep things within a range by making SLOW and IMPERCEPTIBLE corrections. It's this imparted "fussiness" that causes most of our "EMERGENCY" comment threads. Nothing is going to be exact and hitting a certain set of numbers isn't going to make your tank magically thrive overnight. You can't have the attitude of "I want 10ppm nitrates, my current nitrates are 2ppm, I will fix that today". That doesn't work. What needs to be taught is what conditions to look for and how to properly compensate early enough and in a gradual way and MOST importantly, that this is a waiting game where your SMALL inputs yield results weeks later. There's little instant gratification here and if you want that, go microwave a burrito. IMO, a beginner has no need for testing aside from salinity as their tank shouldn't be packed with fish/corals and nutrient/alk/cal/mg levels should be easily kept within range just by doing small and consistent periodic water changes or foregoing them when needed (I honestly think 10% is overkill and the appropriate default should be 5%). Testing is where a lot of reefers go down the rabbit hole too soon and don't have the experience to know how to interpret the data. Sorry but I don't think a reefer in his first month needs to be concerned about how much cadmium is in their system. For A LOT of new reefers, it's better to not fixate on a bunch of individual parameters and instead, focus on doing ONE task, once per week and feed the tank AN APPRORIATE amount once per day.

 

[EugeneVan]

I really wish there was a setting where people were only able to start with "New Reefer Starter Pack" comprised of a twenty gallon tank, heater, sufficient lighting, properly-sized circulation pump, salt mix, rodi system/access to rodi water, refractometer, gravel vacuum, algae pad, old toothbrush, a bucket, sand, cured live rock and starter bacteria AND had to use only this equipment for the first year of reefing. If you can't get it to work after adding a fish or two and coming here for advice when needed, then I don't know what to tell you. This hobby is as hard or as easy as you want it to be. I try to make things easier. So... The only things I think you need to monitor as a beginner in this hobby is salinity and temperature. I stand by that statement and a lot of people here will freak out because they fixate and fuss to no end without realizing most of what we do is keep things within a range by making SLOW and IMPERCEPTIBLE corrections. It's this imparted "fussiness" that causes most of our "EMERGENCY" comment threads. Nothing is going to be exact and hitting a certain set of numbers isn't going to make your tank magically thrive overnight. You can't have the attitude of "I want 10ppm nitrates, my current nitrates are 2ppm, I will fix that today". That doesn't work. What needs to be taught is what conditions to look for and how to properly compensate early enough and in a gradual way and MOST importantly, that this is a waiting game where your SMALL inputs yield results weeks later. There's little instant gratification here and if you want that, go microwave a burrito. IMO, a beginner has no need for testing aside from salinity as their tank shouldn't be packed with fish/corals and nutrient/alk/cal/mg levels should be easily kept within range just by doing small and consistent periodic water changes or foregoing them when needed (I honestly think 10% is overkill and the appropriate default should be 5%). Testing is where a lot of reefers go down the rabbit hole too soon and don't have the experience to know how to interpret the data. Sorry but I don't think a reefer in his first month needs to be concerned about how much cadmium is in their system. For A LOT of new reefers, it's better to not fixate on a bunch of individual parameters and instead, focus on doing ONE task, once per week and feed the tank AN APPRORIATE amount once per day.

Can't agree more

 

[las]

The only reason small tanks are more difficult than large tanks is because changes happen quicker. ( temp, salinity, etc). Other than that they are amazingly easy.

Just do a weekly 50% water change religiously. And feed reef roids, chili or whatever to keep your phosphates/nitrates where you want them. No need for skimmer, reactor or anything (Especially a scrubber). Water change takes 5 min. I love nanos. This will allow you to really feed your corals well. Not complicated at all. And, amazing health with this protocol.

 

[d2mini]

Mistakes are made when you try to run a Nano like a 50-90 gallon tank. If you can screw up changing 3 gallons of water on the same day every week, and hand pouring in fresh water every few days; then this hobby isn't for you. And, doing it on a larger scale isn't going to be easier.

 

[92Miata]

The only reason small tanks are more difficult than large tanks is because changes happen quicker. ( temp, salinity, etc). Other than that they are amazingly easy.

The only one that actually changes any quicker is temp - and that's because of the surface area to volume difference (and can be completely alleviated if your house is climate controlled).

Good ATOs are like $50, and if you don't want to run an ATO, run a lid, and you'll have very little evap. Alkalinity/etc changes are driven by biology, and don't happen any faster in small tanks - and are WAAAAY more difficult to correct in big tanks. 1ppm phosphate is several hundred dollars of GFO in a 180. Its a handful in a 5g tank.

(And a lot of the things we try to control in tanks aren't stable at all in the wild and we're probably wasting our time and money. Temperature on reef crests changes rapidly)


@d2mini - I don't know what you're facepalming. He's 100% correct. Newbies run into so many issues because they make the hobby way more complicated than it needs to be. They watch BRS infomercials where they're running all this automation equipment and dosing 9 million things and think that's the hobby baseline - and don't realize they're infomercials.

In the wild, stony corals like acropora live in an environment where they have water that's basically free of dissolved nitrogen and phosphate, but they're being constantly washed in plankton and bacteria and other sources of food. Lots of food - perfectly clean water.

Big tanks are compromises - much of the equipment we use is largely there to alleviate the need for water changes because they become prohibitively expensive, or to offset the fact that feeding corals the way they get fed in the wild is impossible without hopelessly fouling our water. To truly mimic wild conditions, you'd need to basically be dumping fresh new water and a bunch of food into the tank all day. So we buy all this expensive equipment so we can put more food in the water column without fouling - basically to avoid huge water changes because of expense.

In nanos - you can get much closer to this, because water changes are cheap. You saturate the tank with food, give it some time, then do a big water change. Lots of food, fresh clean water. On my big tank, it would cost me $40 in salt to do a big water change like I do in the small tank.


Good light, good flow, good alkalinity management, and lots of food will get you really far in this hobby. In nanos thats easy and cheap. In big tanks, its expensive, and more labor intensive.

 

[d2mini]

@d2mini - I don't know what you're facepalming. He's 100% correct. Newbies run into so many issues because they make the hobby way more complicated than it needs to be. They watch BRS infomercials where they're running all this automation equipment and dosing 9 million things and think that's the hobby baseline - and don't realize they're infomercials.

Because he keeps missing the point about stability.
As I said earlier I agreed with his other points (and yours) but that wasn't what I and others were referring to.

Also, I ran a 25g lagoon the same as my 200g. Water changes were not nearly enough. Still needed to dose, same as the big tank. SPS and LPS are going to suck elements no matter the size of the tank. And doing large water changes again can lead to instability if you are not dead-on mixing the new the same as the old.

But again, the whole point is that things go south faster the smaller you go. Whether you are running a hi-tech tank or a low-tech tank. Bigger tanks are more forgiving. I really don't see what is so hard to understand about that.

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

Why are you talking about evap? Do you have a refractometer? A piece of crap swing hydrometer?
D

 

[Fishy888]

Mistakes are made when you try to run a Nano like a 50-90 gallon tank. If you can screw up changing 3 gallons of water on the same day every week, and hand pouring in fresh water every few days; then this hobby isn't for you. And, doing it on a larger scale isn't going to be easier.

This is a good point though I must admit.

 

[Crustaceon]

The only reason small tanks are more difficult than large tanks is because changes happen quicker. ( temp, salinity, etc). Other than that they are amazingly easy.

Just do a weekly 50% water change religiously. And feed reef roids, chili or whatever to keep your phosphates/nitrates where you want them. No need for skimmer, reactor or anything (Especially a scrubber). Water change takes 5 min. I love nanos. This will allow you to really feed your corals well. Not complicated at all. And, amazing health with this protocol.

"High import/export" also a correct answer but only IF you're dedicated to a "religious" feeding a maintenance schedule. I ran a pico like this and it was easy as long as I remembered to do the water change part. Man does it punish you if you don't, lol.

 

[Crustaceon]

Here's my perspective running both picos and my 187g: Small tanks are easier. Trying to fix issues in big tanks is far more tougher than fixing issues in small tanks because with a small tank, within one hour, I can literally remove everything, make totally new saltwater and reacclimate everything back into the tank with no issues. I cringe to think about doing that with my 187g including the cost of salt. And having owned small tanks here in san diego where display temps hit 86 degrees in summer with 70 degree nights requiring the use of a heater, temp swings no longer concern me and yes, this is with acropora.

 

[Fishy888]

There are advantages and disadvantages to any size tank. I agree that water changes are pretty much all that's needed in smaller tanks but there's still an issue of chemical and temperature. In my 120 gallons of total system volume a teaspoon of reef roids (and no I don't feed my corals except for my duncans and they get frozen food when I do feed them) would certainly raise my phosphates more than I want. It wouldn't bring on the algae apocalypse however. In a 10 gallon system I wouldn't even want to think about that phosphate rise. The same with many other potential additives.

Then again most people who become reefers are quite intelligent and are quick studies. There's a lot to be said for researching and using common sense. Even the smartest of us get impatient or we panic because a coral closes up for longer than we want or a fish doesn't eat for a few days. The temptation to find something to blame and to throw the kitchen sink at it strikes seasoned reefers. Imagine how much more someone new to the hobby might end up in that situation. It just seems to me that a larger system volume might make the difference between a tank declining slowly enough to do a big water change and avert disaster or having everything die in an hour's time.