This hobby is just impossible!

[Fishy888]

Here's my perspective running both picos and my 187g: Small tanks are easier. Trying to fix issues in big tanks is far more tougher than fixing issues in small tanks because with a small tank, within one hour, I can literally remove everything, make totally new saltwater and reacclimate everything back into the tank with no issues. I cringe to think about doing that with my 187g including the cost of salt. And having owned small tanks here in san diego where display temps hit 86 degrees in summer with 70 degree nights requiring the use of a heater, temp swings no longer concern me and yes, this is with acropora.

But you do remember to do the water changes. What happens though if you have to travel for work unexpectedly or if you end up in the hospital for a week and have no one to check the tank while you're away? If that happens in a larger tank most likely everything will be ok. In a nano, more so in a pico, I'd be sweating bullets because of the likelihood of a tank crash.

 

[EugeneVan]

There are advantages and disadvantages to any size tank. I agree that water changes are pretty much all that's needed in smaller tanks but there's still an issue of chemical and temperature. In my 120 gallons of total system volume a teaspoon of reef roids (and no I don't feed my corals except for my duncans and they get frozen food when I do feed them) would certainly raise my phosphates more than I want. It wouldn't bring on the algae apocalypse however. In a 10 gallon system I wouldn't even want to think about that phosphate rise. The same with many other potential additives.

Then again most people who become reefers are quite intelligent and are quick studies. There's a lot to be said for researching and using common sense. Even the smartest of us get impatient or we panic because a coral closes up for longer than we want or a fish doesn't eat for a few days. The temptation to find something to blame and to throw the kitchen sink at it strikes seasoned reefers. Imagine how much more someone new to the hobby might end up in that situation. It just seems to me that a larger system volume might make the difference between a tank declining slowly enough to do a big water change and avert disaster or having everything die in an hour's time.

But you do remember to do the water changes. What happens though if you have to travel for work unexpectedly or if you end up in the hospital for a week and have no one to check the tank while you're away? If that happens in a larger tank most likely everything will be ok. In a nano, more so in a pico, I'd be sweating bullets because of the likelihood of a tank crash.

 

[TheReefDiary]

Can we stop repeating this please?

Bleaching means the ejection of zooxanthelle - nothing more. There are ALL SORTS of causes. Corals will bleach in phosphate starvation. They'll bleach in nitrogen starvation. They'll bleach at too high temperatures. They'll bleach at too low pH. They'll bleach when alkalinity gets too high. They'll bleach in too high light. And they'll bleach as a last ditch effort to extend their lives when they're not receiving sugar back from zooxanthelle because they're not getting enough light.


He's running an AI prime at 10%. He could physically lie it on top of the coral and it wouldn't be getting too much light.

I read it as 100% thus why I said putting them under too much light. Corals will bleach for numerous reasons, but the number one reason most people are going to bleach corals, especially beginners, is because they are cooking the corals without realizing. Very few beginners are under lighting their tanks.

 

[RocketEngineer]

I’ve been reading through most of the comments so figured it was time to add my drop of experience to the conversation: there is a right size for each person. It depends on goals, lifestyle, and budget. In my case, I dreamed of a “big tank” for well over a decade. My 30g became a 75g then a 125g. My 125g taught me hard lessons about myself: I’m not that interested in upkeep. Swapping the 75g for the 125g was the biggest mistake I’ve ever made in this hobby, When things continued to fail I eventually just gave it up and shut the system down. It was years later that I started considering a new tank and this time I’ve made decisions based on changes in my life and in what I want in a tank. I set up a dedicated water making system. I choose a size that’s big enough for “worker” fish, yet small enough to reach most everything. I wanted a lagoon with LPS that was easy to keep up with and could be put on autopilot if need be. I’m going simple methods with long track records of success (water changes, skimmer, chaeto, kalk). From the description the OP provided, it sounds overly complicated number chasing. To those who run nanos, good for you, well done. It’s not for me and I’m going to say, not for most beginners. A moderately sized system (40g-90g) with the basics of flow, heat, light, has enough forgiveness for beginners to realize something is wrong and correct without being overwhelming. Too small and one might not catch the issue in time to prevent a cascade of issues or might over correct by mistake. Too big, and tasks become more difficult and therefore are not done as often as needed. The trick for all of us is finding that Goldilocks zone that’s just right.

 

[GHOSTLY]

This is absolutely nonsense. The evaporation rate is the same in 10 gallons as in 200 gallons. And the water to salt ratio is the same. In your 200 gallons you may have lost 2 gallons, while in 10 gallons you would have lost 1/10 of a gallon.

My 5 gallon doesn't have an ATO and I only top it off by hand every few days.

Nano tanks have less water and are more unstable but I started on a 13.5 evo and grew acros within my first year. Imo it really depends on the person keeping it. My friend had a 100g and couldn't keep zoas but my friend had a 2.5 and kept acros

 

[92Miata]

I read it as 100% thus why I said putting them under too much light. Corals will bleach for numerous reasons, but the number one reason most people are going to bleach corals, especially beginners, is because they are cooking the corals without realizing. Very few beginners are under lighting their tanks.

That does not at all match my experience.

That does match my experience of explanations on reef forums in newbie groups- because it's largely newbies responding, and pushing this narrative that bleaching is a result of too high light.

The AI Prime 16 HD, at full power, on all channels, maxes out at about 130 mmol/PAR on a typical 9" mount above 10 inches of water. Healthy mushrooms and Ricordia can handle significantly more light than that (and can survive in much less). If they're appearing to show light stress - it's because they're not receiving enough of the other things they need to support healthy photosynthesis, and are undergoing oxidative stress. Almost every coral system failure results in bleaching.


At 25% on his blues, and 10% on his whites, for his 2 hour peak, he's maybe hitting 30. It's not too much light. Can we be done with this?

 

[Crustaceon]

But you do remember to do the water changes. What happens though if you have to travel for work unexpectedly or if you end up in the hospital for a week and have no one to check the tank while you're away? If that happens in a larger tank most likely everything will be ok. In a nano, more so in a pico, I'd be sweating bullets because of the likelihood of a tank crash.

It's pretty much the same. If a heater fails on a big tank, you're in the same boat as a pico tank because in all likelihood, it's not going to get checked on by someone else for hours. I'd honestly be more worried having a power outage with my 187 that was full of tangs than a pico with a single firefish, not to mention all of the extra electrically-driven peripherals, each one a potential failure point, that we need to keep a big tank running. Small tank = A heater, led strip, small return pump if a sump is used or it's an AIO and maybe a small circulation pump. My big tank = two BRS titanium heaters on an inkbird controller, three viparspectra leds, two jebao scp 90's, a pair of 3000gph ac circulation pumps (forgot the brand), Jebao DCP 6500 return pump, large SWC protein skimmer, skimz calcium reactor, kamoer fx-stp, Milwaukee ph controller, smart ato... That's a LOT of electrical equipment being exposed to salty air compared to a pico.

 

[Crustaceon]

I’ve been reading through most of the comments so figured it was time to add my drop of experience to the conversation: there is a right size for each person. It depends on goals, lifestyle, and budget. In my case, I dreamed of a “big tank” for well over a decade. My 30g became a 75g then a 125g. My 125g taught me hard lessons about myself: I’m not that interested in upkeep. Swapping the 75g for the 125g was the biggest mistake I’ve ever made in this hobby, When things continued to fail I eventually just gave it up and shut the system down. It was years later that I started considering a new tank and this time I’ve made decisions based on changes in my life and in what I want in a tank. I set up a dedicated water making system. I choose a size that’s big enough for “worker” fish, yet small enough to reach most everything. I wanted a lagoon with LPS that was easy to keep up with and could be put on autopilot if need be. I’m going simple methods with long track records of success (water changes, skimmer, chaeto, kalk). From the description the OP provided, it sounds overly complicated number chasing. To those who run nanos, good for you, well done. It’s not for me and I’m going to say, not for most beginners. A moderately sized system (40g-90g) with the basics of flow, heat, light, has enough forgiveness for beginners to realize something is wrong and correct without being overwhelming. Too small and one might not catch the issue in time to prevent a cascade of issues or might over correct by mistake. Too big, and tasks become more difficult and therefore are not done as often as needed. The trick for all of us is finding that Goldilocks zone that’s just right.

I'm in the same boat here and it's one of the reasons why i'm breaking down my current 187g tank and setting up a 55-60g. I want enough space to keep the stuff I want, but I don't want the maintenance of a large tank or the required diligence to keep a small tank. I don't think keeping a 20g is much different than keeping a 55g as I've owned both, but I agree under that is different animal.

 

[slythy]

Holy carp did this thread get derailed.

The guy clearly cares otherwise he wouldnt post here. Also no need to be jerks to him.

Also start a poll for which is harder big tank little tank if you want but seems 0like we are beating a dead horse in this “help” thread. Hes not changing his aquarium size lol

i think i would be frustrated if i was told i needed a very expensive piece of equipment and then 30 people told me turn it off its useless.

i think the highlights here are

1) get a fish and feed appropriately.
2) rent a par meter if you can, if not id just set the light to 60% since that seems to be the consensus in the thread for people who have the light
3) stop dosing N & P and do more water changes. The main goal is to not have 0/0, thats probably worse than high.
4) do some more research. Its a hard hobby where ideas change daily on what you need/should do.
5) breath and take it in stride. Everyone here has killed fish or coral. Its not super easy but if a little manual labor goes in weekly you can have success.
6) the only numbers you should be chasing at this point is salinity. Get a refractometer with some 1.026 cal fluid and hit that. 1.020-1.023 is too low.

 

[zdrc]

Holy carp did this thread get derailed.

The guy clearly cares otherwise he wouldnt post here. Also no need to be jerks to him.

Also start a poll for which is harder big tank little tank if you want but seems 0like we are beating a dead horse in this “help” thread. Hes not changing his aquarium size lol

i think i would be frustrated if i was told i needed a very expensive piece of equipment and then 30 people told me turn it off its useless.

i think the highlights here are

1) get a fish and feed appropriately.
2) rent a par meter if you can, if not id just set the light to 60% since that seems to be the consensus in the thread for people who have the light
3) stop dosing N & P and do more water changes. The main goal is to not have 0/0, thats probably worse than high.
4) do some more research. Its a hard hobby where ideas change daily on what you need/should do.
5) breath and take it in stride. Everyone here has killed fish or coral. Its not super easy but if a little manual labor goes in weekly you can have success.
6) the only numbers you should be chasing at this point is salinity. Get a refractometer with some 1.026 cal fluid and hit that. 1.020-1.023 is too low.

For sure, this thread is a real mire. A lot of conflicting advice, people patting each other on the back, belittling the OP, and taking the thread off topic.

I still think that OP should ditch the scrubber. I can understand that it's difficult to hear, but that doesn't mean it isn't the right decision.

Also I have real worries that the OP is feeding massive and unnecessary amounts of coral food, which they should also stop doing.

I would still like to know what the flow is like in the tank too.

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

Because he keeps missing the point about stability.
As I said earlier I agreed with his other points (and yours) but that wasn't what I and others were referring to.

Bro, this isn't the 2000's. There is no great difference in stability, other than temperature. And, today a cheap Chinese temperature controller is insurance against that.

If you feed 200 gallons 20 grams of food, and I feed 10 gallons 1 gram of food; the PO4 and NO3 levels will rise to the same level.

The biomass in 10 gallons consumes calcium and alkalinity in a similar ratio(key word ratio not volume) as does the biomass in 200 gallons. The difference is in 10 gallons I can cut a bad parameter in half in less than an hour.

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

In my 120 gallons of total system volume a teaspoon of reef roids (and no I don't feed my corals except for my duncans and they get frozen food when I do feed them) would certainly raise my phosphates more than I want. It wouldn't bring on the algae apocalypse however. In a 10 gallon system I wouldn't even want to think about that phosphate rise. The same with many other potential additives.

Why in the world would you dump a teaspoon of Reef Roids into a 10 gallon? That is what team "biggest you can afford" is failing to realize. The biomass is a 10 gallon consumes 1/12th the nutrients that your 120 does. Which the OP of this post is struggling to grasp.

But, lets say you did make this mistake, and PO4 shot to 0.24, 5 gallons and less than an hour later I can have them down to 0.12. Three days later... 0.06... one week.... 0.03

It is just a little math, not exactly... rocket surgery.

 

[Dav2996]

The smaller the tank, the more challenging it is to keep stable parameters. Nano reefs are very unforgiving.

I agree that is why I recommend no water changes and dose. I know what I am saying is not for new people haha. When you do water changes you gotta test the new water and make sure it matches the old water or you ticked your coral off. I do not think everyone is using all 8 of their test kits to test the new water.

 

[Fishy888]

Why in the world would you dump a teaspoon of Reef Roids into a 10 gallon? That is what team "biggest you can afford" is failing to realize. The biomass is a 10 gallon consumes 1/12th the nutrients that your 120 does. Which the OP of this post is struggling to grasp.

But, lets say you did make this mistake, and PO4 shot to 0.24, 5 gallons and less than an hour later I can have them down to 0.12. Three days later... 0.06... one week.... 0.03

It is just a little math, not exactly... rocket surgery.

I get all of this but how will your tank of acros handle the rapid swing?

 

[92Miata]

But again, the whole point is that things go south faster the smaller you go. Whether you are running a hi-tech tank or a low-tech tank. Bigger tanks are more forgiving. I really don't see what is so hard to understand about that.

I've kept saltwater systems from 1g up to 12000 gallons, and I fundamentally disagree. I've seen 1000+ gallon tanks die overnight and bowls limp along for months despite terrible conditions.

Yes - it takes smaller mistakes to kill smaller tanks - but people make bigger mistakes with bigger tanks because they get used to dealing with bigger quantities. When someone has a dosing pump failure on a 10g tank, they dump 500ml of 2 part into the tank. On a 1000 gallon tank, it's 5 gallons of 2 part. I've seen people do water changes with 2000 gallons of RODI. Everything happens on a larger scale.

I get all of this but how will your tank of acros handle the rapid swing?

Better than they'd handle it in a big tank, where it would take months to get down from that .24. There are short spikes every time you feed - corals don't care. What they care about is permanent changes that happen quickly - because they change the whole biology of the tank. Bacterial colonies crash, others bloom, it screws with their ability to manage their symbiotes, etc.

But you can pour a whole can of reef roids into a reef vase, realize you did something stupid, and immediately fix it. You can't do that in a big tank, because nobody keeps enough water around to do 100% water changes, because it costs too much (and it would take too long anyways).

ATOs and the proliferation of central air fixed 99 percent of the problems with small tanks. I get the feeling that a lot of the people here saying they're hard have never actually kept one.

 

[TheyGaveItToMe]

I get all of this but how will your tank of acros handle the rapid swing?

They might get a little upset for a few days at most, but even that isn't likely. How often do acro frags and colonies survivor being stuffed in a container inside a dark box at the mercy of the postal service and weather? What do you think happens to the corals sold at reefing conventions? Short term swings are not as dangerous as it taking weeks to correct a problem.

That a side, in the context of easier for beginners, if they really want to jump right to SPS, corals like stylophora and orange montipora refuse to die.

 

[Reeferpops52]

I just can't figure out what's wrong with my tank. I tried keeping coral 10 years ago and they all died without me ever figuring out the problem. I figured I'd try again this year, but my coral are dying and I can't figure it out again.

I got a 10 gallon tank and cycled it for 2 months in the dark. No diatoms or cyano ever broke out. It went perfectly. Ammonia converted to nitrate within hours.

Set Up:

AI Prime HD: 25% for UV, Royal Blue, Violet, and Blue for 7 hours with 1 hour for ramp up and another hour for ramp down; 10% whites for 2 hours with 30 min ramp up and down time.
Algae turf scrubber: For nutrient export. Since I'm not keeping any fish, shrimp, crabs, snails, etc., I'm dosing Red Sea AB+ and Brightwell Nitrate and phosphate to keep nutrients up.


Parameters:

Temp: 78F (using Inkbird temp controller)
Nitrates: 30-40 ppm (using Hanna Checker)
Phosphate: 0.10-0.20 ppm (using Hanna Checker)
dKH: ~8
SG: 1.023 (increasing this slowly to 1.024)

Livestock:

GSP: Almost dead within a few months
Zoas: Some open, other frags closed, and 2 frags completely died
Ricordea Florida: 1 bleached and didn't survive, another bleached but hanging in there. All other ricordea lost some bubbles and became smooth and dark blue (see photos)
Rhodactis Mushroom: 1 bleached, one doing very well, and one lost it's texture and became smooth (see before and after photo below).
Candy Crush mushroom: died within a month
St. Thomas Mushroom: Doing very well.

Before:

After:

A good rule of thumb I use is if your tank doesn't have already at some point (IE) able to support algae then it's a good bet that it isn't going to keep corals remember your corals depend on the zoozanthelea algae in their tissue to survive and their rudimentary needs other than their symbiotic one are still the same...but that's just my rule of thumb when cycling my tanks and it seems to have always worked for me...an algae bloom when cycling isn't necessarily a bad thing it's proof that a process is happening and its easier to work with a process you know is happening then to have no proof of process at all. I never does coral supplements like the ones you named until my parameters have been stable long enough to support a descent population of all corals...I don't buy any larger colonies until I have had a stable population with significant signs of settling in and thriving for at least 8 months or more and even then I'm very selective...it doesn't matter how long I have been doing this is will always treat a new tank setup like its my first but utilizing the knowledge I have gained over the years to make each experience a little less problem free but even then some things are just going to go wrong for whatever reason..the trick is not to panic...but to take a step back and recount your prior steps...second is to and I can't stress this enough..DOCUMENT your process from start to finish especially your parameters, supplementation, water changes, source water etc. If you have nothing to go back to it makes it that much harder to track and possibly remedy the issue. Three things I'll suggest, check for pests if you aren't dipping your corals even frags, second source water are you checking it before using it in your system and third is contaminants from liverock, other corals, substrate and even over supplementation. Hope any of this helps..dont give up yet Bud.

 

[Fishy888]

Well I must say I think I am coming around to your points of view on this subject. You all make a lot of sense and gave some good examples. Thank you.

 

[las]

I think everyone should try a nano. You will learn how to do perfect, large % water changes. You will have to feed really heavy to keep NO3 10-15 and PO4 .1-.25. And, you will see the best coral growth you can imagine.The most fun you can have in the hobby per amount of work you put in.

 

[MnFish1]

I just can't figure out what's wrong with my tank. I tried keeping coral 10 years ago and they all died without me ever figuring out the problem. I figured I'd try again this year, but my coral are dying and I can't figure it out again.

I got a 10 gallon tank and cycled it for 2 months in the dark. No diatoms or cyano ever broke out. It went perfectly. Ammonia converted to nitrate within hours.

Set Up:

AI Prime HD: 25% for UV, Royal Blue, Violet, and Blue for 7 hours with 1 hour for ramp up and another hour for ramp down; 10% whites for 2 hours with 30 min ramp up and down time.
Algae turf scrubber: For nutrient export. Since I'm not keeping any fish, shrimp, crabs, snails, etc., I'm dosing Red Sea AB+ and Brightwell Nitrate and phosphate to keep nutrients up.


Parameters:

Temp: 78F (using Inkbird temp controller)
Nitrates: 30-40 ppm (using Hanna Checker)
Phosphate: 0.10-0.20 ppm (using Hanna Checker)
dKH: ~8
SG: 1.023 (increasing this slowly to 1.024)

Livestock:

GSP: Almost dead within a few months
Zoas: Some open, other frags closed, and 2 frags completely died
Ricordea Florida: 1 bleached and didn't survive, another bleached but hanging in there. All other ricordea lost some bubbles and became smooth and dark blue (see photos)
Rhodactis Mushroom: 1 bleached, one doing very well, and one lost it's texture and became smooth (see before and after photo below).
Candy Crush mushroom: died within a month
St. Thomas Mushroom: Doing very well.

Before:

After:

I managed to make it through 50 % of the posts that kind of directly contradict each other. I agree - that you should not need to be doing 'much' for that tank except water changes assuming:

1. The water you're using to make up salt is appropriate (RODI with TDS 0)
2. you're mixing the salt according to directions.
3. The test kits you're using are accurate including your salinity/specific gravity test.
4. I disagree that you 'need fish' to keep a tank like this.
5. Sometimes coral release toxins to help them compete against other corals near them - this could be part of your problem - have you considered activated carbon?

There are people that keep these kinds of corals in a jar - with water changes. I think part of your issues relate to overdoing , 'Hands in the tank' syndrome.

Best wishes - don't get discouraged.
6. Agree - no need for dosing or the algae scrubber.