This snake oil?

[Larry L]

I've talked with Dr Tim about these products specifically at MACNA. Basically they are versions of his other "waste away" live bacteria products, but instead of being in liquid suspension they are embedded in a time-release gel so that they are continuously dosed. Definitely not snake oil, and personally I think a really interesting product from an ease-of-maintenance point of view.

 

[DrTim]

Hello Everyone:

Glad to explain our Waste-Away gels and answer any other questions. Srusso - is there anything specific you think is snakeoil-ish about the product or is that just a general observation about the entire product/concept?

 

[srusso]

Hello Everyone:

Glad to explain our Waste-Away gels and answer any other questions. Srusso - is there anything specific you think is snakeoil-ish about the product or is that just a general observation about the entire product/concept?

Thank you for taking the time to discuss with us!!

First, the description claims seem hard to believe.

"Dr. Tim's Waste Away Gel is specially designed to break down fish waste in the hard to reach areas of your reef tank. Waste-Away is a 100% natural bacterial additive that helps dissolve sludge and hidden wastes. Using Waste-Away will also help increase your tanks ORP and the production of your protein skimmer."

How can it help break down fish waste in "hard to reach areas".

What is the gel, how can we be sure this wouldn't do harm?

How did you test for increased ORP production? Or skimmer production?

Is bacteria dormant in the gel?

Does is your bacteria autotrophic or anaerobic?

Is this basically a time-released version of the bottled product? If so, how could slowly releasing bacteria be better then the natural bacteria?

Lastly, any scientific data or test results you can share of your product?

Again, thank you in advance for your time!

 

[srusso]

Got a few more:

How and who has tested your product?

Do you have an aquarium?

Does it use this product?

Is it replaced based on the 30 day regiment?

Can we see the results of photos of the tank?

 

[Softhammer]

And I was roasting.......

 

[DrTim]

Thank you for taking the time to discuss with us!!

First, the description claims seem hard to believe.

"Dr. Tim's Waste Away Gel is specially designed to break down fish waste in the hard to reach areas of your reef tank. Waste-Away is a 100% natural bacterial additive that helps dissolve sludge and hidden wastes. Using Waste-Away will also help increase your tanks ORP and the production of your protein skimmer."

How can it help break down fish waste in "hard to reach areas
The bacteria in the gel are slowly released into the water. There are 8 strains of bacteria in the gel. Some are good at consuming nitrate and phosphate while other are good at degrading organics. This is how nutrients are recycled in the environment. Bacteria mineralize (breakdown) the organic matter (bodies, feces, dead plant leaves - everything organic) into inorganic carbon and ammonia and water. This why we are not buried in the dead remains of everything that came before us.

So the bacteria are released into the water and the current circulates them to all points in the tank - even the hard to reach areas. Once they find organic material they work to degrade that material.

The goal is for the bacteria to turn organics and nutrients into more bacteria by consuming these things and multiplying. The skimmer than removes the bacteria thereby removing the nutrients and organics.

What is the gel, how can we be sure this wouldn't do harm?
Harm to what and how? The gel does not dissolve nor does the gel come out of the cartridge. The bacteria come out the gel into the water.


How did you test for increased ORP production? Or skimmer production?
You use an ORP probe and you can measure skimmer production.


Is bacteria dormant in the gel?
Yes they are.


Does is your bacteria autotrophic or anaerobic?
These are heterotrophic bacteria - they can work aerobically or anaerobically depending on the environment. In this case they are working aerobically. The only autotrophic bacteria are the nitrifying bacteria which are not in the gel.


Is this basically a time-released version of the bottled product? If so, how could slowly releasing bacteria be better then the natural bacteria?
Yes, that is exactly what is it. Just because they are slow releasing does not mean they are not natural. They are the exact same bacteria that is in our liquid Waste-Away. 100% Natural, 8 strains/species. What this does is replace the bacteria that are being constantly removed by the protein skimmer and other devices. As Feldman et al showed in their Advanced Aquarist Online Article (Feature Article: Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water: Baseline Values and Modulation by Carbon Dosing, Protein Skimming, and Granular Activated Carbon Filtration) the skimmer removes a significant amount of bacteria from the water. A one time dosing adds bacteria but they are removed and your tank is back to where it was - lacking bacteria in the water. A slow release (or dosing) of bacteria meaning you are adding back 24/7 which is a much better situation and over-comes the problem of the skimmer removing too much bacteria.


Lastly, any scientific data or test results you can share of your product?
Funny thing about scientific data and the aquarium hobby - when it is produced by the inventor (me) no one (in the industry) believes it. I have 3 peer-reviewed published scientific papers (over 20 years ago) showing who the actual species of nitrify bacteria are in aquariums (they are not Nitrosomonas europaea and Nitrobacter winogradskyii). I published these results first in the World and they have been confirmed many, many times over. In the microbiology world this is settled and I am recognized as an expert in the field and give invited talks around the World at scientific conferences for aquaculture, public aquaria and water filtration. But in the home aquarium field I get hobbyists all the time telling me that my results are wrong (of course, they do not provide any data of their own) and I am just trying to sell you bacteria.

The 'proof' we provide is the results. You can ask the people are BRS - when Ryan first added the gels to a tank that was full of cyano within 7 days they saw results - most of the cyano was gone. You can also measure the decrease in nitrate and phosphate.

Do they work fast - what's fast? It does not work in a day or two.
Do they work in all cases - no and we don't promise that. Every tank is different and I feel the gels will help in the great majority of cases.



Again, thank you in advance for your time!
You are welcome

 

[Justintegra99]

How can it help break down fish waste in "hard to reach areas
The bacteria in the gel are slowly released into the water. There are 8 strains of bacteria in the gel. Some are good at consuming nitrate and phosphate while other are good at degrading organics. This is how nutrients are recycled in the environment. Bacteria mineralize (breakdown) the organic matter (bodies, feces, dead plant leaves - everything organic) into inorganic carbon and ammonia and water. This why we are not buried in the dead remains of everything that came before us.

So the bacteria are released into the water and the current circulates them to all points in the tank - even the hard to reach areas. Once they find organic material they work to degrade that material.

The goal is for the bacteria to turn organics and nutrients into more bacteria by consuming these things and multiplying. The skimmer than removes the bacteria thereby removing the nutrients and organics.

What is the gel, how can we be sure this wouldn't do harm?
Harm to what and how? The gel does not dissolve nor does the gel come out of the cartridge. The bacteria come out the gel into the water.


How did you test for increased ORP production? Or skimmer production?
You use an ORP probe and you can measure skimmer production.


Is bacteria dormant in the gel?
Yes they are.


Does is your bacteria autotrophic or anaerobic?
These are heterotrophic bacteria - they can work aerobically or anaerobically depending on the environment. In this case they are working aerobically. The only autotrophic bacteria are the nitrifying bacteria which are not in the gel.


Is this basically a time-released version of the bottled product? If so, how could slowly releasing bacteria be better then the natural bacteria?
Yes, that is exactly what is it. Just because they are slow releasing does not mean they are not natural. They are the exact same bacteria that is in our liquid Waste-Away. 100% Natural, 8 strains/species. What this does is replace the bacteria that are being constantly removed by the protein skimmer and other devices. As Feldman et al showed in their Advanced Aquarist Online Article (Feature Article: Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water: Baseline Values and Modulation by Carbon Dosing, Protein Skimming, and Granular Activated Carbon Filtration) the skimmer removes a significant amount of bacteria from the water. A one time dosing adds bacteria but they are removed and your tank is back to where it was - lacking bacteria in the water. A slow release (or dosing) of bacteria meaning you are adding back 24/7 which is a much better situation and over-comes the problem of the skimmer removing too much bacteria.


Lastly, any scientific data or test results you can share of your product?
Funny thing about scientific data and the aquarium hobby - when it is produced by the inventor (me) no one (in the industry) believes it. I have 3 peer-reviewed published scientific papers (over 20 years ago) showing who the actual species of nitrify bacteria are in aquariums (they are not Nitrosomonas europaea and Nitrobacter winogradskyii). I published these results first in the World and they have been confirmed many, many times over. In the microbiology world this is settled and I am recognized as an expert in the field and give invited talks around the World at scientific conferences for aquaculture, public aquaria and water filtration. But in the home aquarium field I get hobbyists all the time telling me that my results are wrong (of course, they do not provide any data of their own) and I am just trying to sell you bacteria.

The 'proof' we provide is the results. You can ask the people are BRS - when Ryan first added the gels to a tank that was full of cyano within 7 days they saw results - most of the cyano was gone. You can also measure the decrease in nitrate and phosphate.

Do they work fast - what's fast? It does not work in a day or two.
Do they work in all cases - no and we don't promise that. Every tank is different and I feel the gels will help in the great majority of cases.



Again, thank you in advance for your time!
You are welcome

This is a great reply, and sold me on either a bottle or gel inset for my tank. Thanks for taking the time to do this as a lot of vendors would not. I have a follow up question though. I have a biocube29 that does not have a skimmer. You mention having a skimmer to remove the bacteria several times though. Do I need a skimmer to use this? If I do not have a skimmer, do I run a greater risk of cloudiness and bacteria blooms?

Thanks again for taking the time for this.

 

[HawaiianReef]

Will these bacteria compete with the established bacteria?

 

[Antics]

How can it help break down fish waste in "hard to reach areas
The bacteria in the gel are slowly released into the water. There are 8 strains of bacteria in the gel. Some are good at consuming nitrate and phosphate while other are good at degrading organics. This is how nutrients are recycled in the environment. Bacteria mineralize (breakdown) the organic matter (bodies, feces, dead plant leaves - everything organic) into inorganic carbon and ammonia and water. This why we are not buried in the dead remains of everything that came before us.

So the bacteria are released into the water and the current circulates them to all points in the tank - even the hard to reach areas. Once they find organic material they work to degrade that material.

The goal is for the bacteria to turn organics and nutrients into more bacteria by consuming these things and multiplying. The skimmer than removes the bacteria thereby removing the nutrients and organics.

What is the gel, how can we be sure this wouldn't do harm?
Harm to what and how? The gel does not dissolve nor does the gel come out of the cartridge. The bacteria come out the gel into the water.


How did you test for increased ORP production? Or skimmer production?
You use an ORP probe and you can measure skimmer production.


Is bacteria dormant in the gel?
Yes they are.


Does is your bacteria autotrophic or anaerobic?
These are heterotrophic bacteria - they can work aerobically or anaerobically depending on the environment. In this case they are working aerobically. The only autotrophic bacteria are the nitrifying bacteria which are not in the gel.


Is this basically a time-released version of the bottled product? If so, how could slowly releasing bacteria be better then the natural bacteria?
Yes, that is exactly what is it. Just because they are slow releasing does not mean they are not natural. They are the exact same bacteria that is in our liquid Waste-Away. 100% Natural, 8 strains/species. What this does is replace the bacteria that are being constantly removed by the protein skimmer and other devices. As Feldman et al showed in their Advanced Aquarist Online Article (Feature Article: Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water: Baseline Values and Modulation by Carbon Dosing, Protein Skimming, and Granular Activated Carbon Filtration) the skimmer removes a significant amount of bacteria from the water. A one time dosing adds bacteria but they are removed and your tank is back to where it was - lacking bacteria in the water. A slow release (or dosing) of bacteria meaning you are adding back 24/7 which is a much better situation and over-comes the problem of the skimmer removing too much bacteria.


Lastly, any scientific data or test results you can share of your product?
Funny thing about scientific data and the aquarium hobby - when it is produced by the inventor (me) no one (in the industry) believes it. I have 3 peer-reviewed published scientific papers (over 20 years ago) showing who the actual species of nitrify bacteria are in aquariums (they are not Nitrosomonas europaea and Nitrobacter winogradskyii). I published these results first in the World and they have been confirmed many, many times over. In the microbiology world this is settled and I am recognized as an expert in the field and give invited talks around the World at scientific conferences for aquaculture, public aquaria and water filtration. But in the home aquarium field I get hobbyists all the time telling me that my results are wrong (of course, they do not provide any data of their own) and I am just trying to sell you bacteria.

The 'proof' we provide is the results. You can ask the people are BRS - when Ryan first added the gels to a tank that was full of cyano within 7 days they saw results - most of the cyano was gone. You can also measure the decrease in nitrate and phosphate.

Do they work fast - what's fast? It does not work in a day or two.
Do they work in all cases - no and we don't promise that. Every tank is different and I feel the gels will help in the great majority of cases.



Again, thank you in advance for your time!
You are welcome

Thanks for taking time to answer these questions. It's nice when the community can interact directly with the source!

 

[DrTim]

This is a great reply, and sold me on either a bottle or gel inset for my tank. Thanks for taking the time to do this as a lot of vendors would not. I have a follow up question though. I have a biocube29 that does not have a skimmer. You mention having a skimmer to remove the bacteria several times though. Do I need a skimmer to use this? If I do not have a skimmer, do I run a greater risk of cloudiness and bacteria blooms?

Thanks again for taking the time for this.

You're welcome and thanks for the nice reply.

Question - does your tank have an issue - algae, cyano, dinoflagellates, dirty/smelly water etc? Most people over skim (my opinion) and this removes to much bacteria from the water leaving nutrients. Those nutrient are now used by stuff that grows on surfaces that the skimmer does not affect (like cyano, dino, algae etc) because their competition has been removed by the skimmer.

Since you do not have a skimmer you do not have that issue but you have a build up of organics. So first we have to determine if you have an issue.

Cheers

 

[DrTim]

Will these bacteria compete with the established bacteria?

Assuming you mean heterotrophic bacteria growing on surfaces the answer is yes. But that could be a good thing because if you trying to grow coralline algae for instance you need to clean the surfaces. Also if you have recurring disease problems chances are high you have a biofilm somewhere that is a reservoir for these disease organism and this will get rid of that.

 

[WVNed]

Do these bacteria become resident in the system or do you have to continually replenish them?

 

[DrTim]

Got a few more:

How and who has tested your product?
Initial testing involved replicate tanks with and without the gels and measuring organics, nitrate, phosphate, water clarity and bacteria counts in the water column.

This product was first developed for the commercial aquaculture field and has been used by fish farmers and well know fish/coral providers. I would have to get their permission before naming names. If it also used in the recirculating fish display systems of several Uncle Bill's Pet Centers in Indianapolis. They have found that they do not have to clean the front glass on their tank nearly as often when the gels on in their central fish systems.


Do you have an aquarium?
Yes, we have a lab that has anywhere from 12 to 36 aquariums depend on the size. We use these for testing with replicates. We also have a few display tanks.

Does it use this product?
Yes they do - we never release a product that has not gone through lab testing and real world testing by friends.

Is it replaced based on the 30 day regiment?
The gels will change color when they need replacing with is about 30 days.

Can we see the results of photos of the tank?

I will try to to find some.

 

[Justintegra99]

You're welcome and thanks for the nice reply.

Question - does your tank have an issue - algae, cyano, dinoflagellates, dirty/smelly water etc? Most people over skim (my opinion) and this removes to much bacteria from the water leaving nutrients. Those nutrient are now used by stuff that grows on surfaces that the skimmer does not affect (like cyano, dino, algae etc) because their competition has been removed by the skimmer.

Since you do not have a skimmer you do not have that issue but you have a build up of organics. So first we have to determine if you have an issue.

Cheers

Nothing i would consider severe. I feed lightly and do weekly 20% water changes. I had a nasty bout of Cyano last month that I beat with two doses of Chemiclean, and it did not come back so I assume that I resolved whatever nutrient issue I had.

I DO have a light case of bubble algae growing on one rock that I cannot seam to beat though, no matter what I do. Outside of that, the tank is pretty well clear of nuisance algae, though it is admittedly very lightly stocked.

 

[DrTim]

Do these bacteria become resident in the system or do you have to continually replenish them?

Generally no because they live in the water column and are removed by the skimmer or trapped in filter socks.

That is the idea - turn organics and nutrients into bacteria and remove the bacteria thereby removing the organics and nutrients.

 

[DrTim]

Nothing i would consider severe. I feed lightly and do weekly 20% water changes. I had a nasty bout of Cyano last month that I beat with two doses of Chemiclean, and it did not come back so I assume that I resolved whatever nutrient issue I had.

I DO have a light case of bubble algae growing on one rock that I cannot seam to beat though, no matter what I do. Outside of that, the tank is pretty well clear of nuisance algae, though it is admittedly very lightly stocked.

To be most effective you need a way to remove the bacteria - this can be a skimmer or even filter socks. As the filter sock clogs it becomes a decent mechanical filter (so good the water does not go through it and the sock overflows). Use a small pump or something to run some of the water through the sock and change the sock often. Basically you have to do what the skimmer does - manually remove the bacteria from the system.

 

[kchristensen8064]

I am going through a nasty Cyano problem right now, that I have been trying to get a handle on for a while. After reading through this thread you have me sold! I am at a point where I will try anything and this seems to be worth a shot at the very least.

 

[HawaiianReef]

Is there a chance of ammonia spikes if you stop using this gel?

 

[PookieGV]

Dr Tim, thank you for participating. I am setting up a new tank now and will be adding g a couple of your products to my shopping list.

 

[AcroNem]

It's very nice to see you on the forums now @DrTim, thank you for participating and sharing information, for me that goes a long way. I don't believe you sell snake oil, we used your products at a facility I worked at previously and we were happy, and this might be worth a go as well for smaller systems.