Thoughts about PO4 (particulate vs liquid)

[Reefahholic]

 

[Garf]

I wondered what this stuff would look like. Would a calcium carbonate powder soaked in a phosphate solution, then dried, not be similar?

 

[Dan_P]

I wondered what this stuff would look like. Would a calcium carbonate powder soaked in a phosphate solution, then dried, not be similar?

It’s a funny life where some aquarists have to add phosphorous to their system and others fight so hard to take it out.

 

[danimal1211]

I wondered what this stuff would look like. Would a calcium carbonate powder soaked in a phosphate solution, then dried, not be similar?

Maybe our corals suffer from heart burn

 

[Reefahholic]

What happens to the particles that the corals don’t filter. They never break down? This is an excellent product.

FYI: Both products have trace elements.


Phos-Feed
Ingredients: Phosphate Mineral Powder, Trace Elements (iodide, fluoride, and bromide); Inactive ingredient: Pro-Reef Sea Salt

Phos-Start:
Ingredients: Natural calcium carbonate microparticles, phosphate mineral powder, natural biopolymers, iodide, fluoride and bromide.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

It seems to me the same particulate feeding effect effect can be attained by organic carbon dosing, driving up bacteria levels.

 

[tetonair]

I am giving it a try on my 20g. I don’t know where it is all going when there are few corals. I suppose corraline foundational elements and other biological processes. Seems like a lot of stuff going into the tank with out any call for it yet.

It is hard not to overdose this stuff on a small volume tank. They give you a little spoon 1ml/100gal so how much does that look like for <20gal? Two tenths of a spoon. Hardly seems like enough to do anything so I should probably double it right. Jk.
I like the sales pitch, hopefully I will see some good corraline to confirm its working.

I am testing with my Hannah Marine master. I am a bit confused about this. Does PS eventually breakdown and dissolve? I understand that the reagent in our testers will dissolve the particulate phosphate. My tests are sort of all over the place sometimes low sometimes high, last week I had to do three in a row to get one that I felt was accurate. Seems like it’s just very easy to get a contaminated result.

I am wondering if I can continue using it once the appropriate levels of phosphate have been stabilized? I know Lou TM has said that the scientists have told him to switch over to phos-feed once we start growing undesirable algae. But on the other hand, it sure seems like Phos-start would be a good long-term solution because of the additional bacteria/carbon dosing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Tropic Marin does not state on their web site what this mineral phosphate actually is, so I cannot say whether it is useful and/or detectable by kit.

"But on the other hand, it sure seems like Phos-start would be a good long-term solution because of the additional bacteria/carbon dosing."

Solution to what?

 

[tetonair]

Long-term solution to promoting the good and handicapping, the bad bacteria and algae while also providing po4 for the coral. Is seems to me that all of the things they are promoting for a ‘young’ aquarium would also be beneficial for a mature one.

• Tropic Marin® Phos-Start contains natural marine biopolymers as bacterial food to stimulate the microbiome in the startup phase of the new marine aquarium.
• Calcium and trace elements stimulate and support the growth of coralline algae.
• Included halogen trace elements like iodide, fluoride and bromide, replace elements consumed by increased growth rate of coralline algae and corals.

I appreciate your perspective on things though. What would be the theoretical pros and cons to using P-S in an established system rather than Phos-Feed as they instruct?

 

[jda]

Your guess is as good as anybody's. When the folks from TM engage on this forum they ask for evidence that they stuff does not work, but when anybody asks for their evidence that it does they say that it is a secret and based on experience.

I am afraid that you are never going to know. You either use it and have faith, use it and wonder or just don't use it. Fun right?

 

[tetonair]

I am giving it a try on my 20g. I don’t know where it is all going when there are few corals. I suppose corraline foundational elements and other biological processes. Seems like a lot of stuff going into the tank with out any call for it yet.

It is hard not to overdose this stuff on a small volume tank. They give you a little spoon 1ml/100gal so how much does that look like for <20gal? Two tenths of a spoon. Hardly seems like enough to do anything so I should probably double it right. Jk.
I like the sales pitch, hopefully I will see some good corraline to confirm its working.

I am testing with my Hannah Marine master. I am a bit confused about this. Does PS eventually breakdown and dissolve? I understand that the reagent in our testers will dissolve the particulate phosphate. My tests are sort of all over the place sometimes low sometimes high, last week I had to do three in a row to get one that I felt was accurate. Seems like it’s just very easy to get a contaminated result.

I am wondering if I can continue using it once the appropriate levels of phosphate have been stabilized? I know Lou TM has said that the scientists have told him to switch over to phos-feed once we start growing undesirable algae. But on the other hand, it sure seems like Phos-start would be a good long-term solution because of the additional bacteria/carbon dosing.

Today the result is back within reason .13 but still crazy volatile. Even if I throw out the high peak readings its would still be a steep climb. Trail blazing! Tank looks ok, so I am going to continue. One problem I am having is my Nitrates are relatively low at 1.3. So I might have to start dosing nitrates to catch up to the phosphate level.

 

[Tavero]

Long-term solution to promoting the good and handicapping, the bad bacteria and algae while also providing po4 for the coral. Is seems to me that all of the things they are promoting for a ‘young’ aquarium would also be beneficial for a mature one.

• Tropic Marin® Phos-Start contains natural marine biopolymers as bacterial food to stimulate the microbiome in the startup phase of the new marine aquarium.
• Calcium and trace elements stimulate and support the growth of coralline algae.
• Included halogen trace elements like iodide, fluoride and bromide, replace elements consumed by increased growth rate of coralline algae and corals.

I appreciate your perspective on things though. What would be the theoretical pros and cons to using P-S in an established system rather than Phos-Feed as they instruct?

Sounds like a lot of buzz words from the marketing department if you ask me.
natural marine biopolymers sounds way more fancy than agar agar and
phosphate mineral powder more mysterious than Tricalciumphosphat even though it's probably the same things.
What's bad bacteria? Cyano? I don't see how this stuff should be less available to this bad bacteria than corals. Bacteria are, on average, better at breaking down stuff than corals.

 

[danimal1211]

It’s seems to me maybe this article may have been be the premise for this product (the large-scale study with seabird droppings). https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06442-5 I have to admit I originally thought it was a great idea and I purchased some, but haven’t really used it.
It would seem to me that in order for our corals to utilize particulate phosphate they would have to. Capture, ingest, then digest it. Would the energy gained exceed the energy spent in consuming it?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Long-term solution to promoting the good and handicapping, the bad bacteria and algae while also providing po4 for the coral. Is seems to me that all of the things they are promoting for a ‘young’ aquarium would also be beneficial for a mature one.

• Tropic Marin® Phos-Start contains natural marine biopolymers as bacterial food to stimulate the microbiome in the startup phase of the new marine aquarium.
• Calcium and trace elements stimulate and support the growth of coralline algae.
• Included halogen trace elements like iodide, fluoride and bromide, replace elements consumed by increased growth rate of coralline algae and corals.

I appreciate your perspective on things though. What would be the theoretical pros and cons to using P-S in an established system rather than Phos-Feed as they instruct?

Good and bad bacteria. Pretty meaningless words, imo, aside from cyanobacteria being bad.

Unless you have a specific problem, such as cyano, I would not be trying to change the bacteria in your tank.

 

[Big E]

It amazes that after 200 years of hucksters selling magic elixirs people still fall for these kind of things.
Just a bunch of psychobabble along with unproven theories on what's actually going on.

You want your P04 to go up..........feed natural food products. Whether it's fish food or coral food only use products that have natural ingredients.

I prefer to make my own but there are plenty of commercial products with natural ingredients.

It's ok to use the liquid chemicals that you can make cheaply for short term fixes just to chase numbers but after that use natural foods.

You know a natural food is going to bio available but it's total conjecture to say dosing a liquid will be.

 

[Pod_01]

Just a bunch of psychobabble along with unproven theories on what's actually going on.

Just to add some context, these two products have been developed by Hans- Werner Balling (If you are not aware the Balling method uses his name for a reason).

I am really confused how you can state that TM or Hans-Werner methods are psychobabble or unproven theories but you are entitled to your opinions.

It's ok to use the liquid chemicals that you can make cheaply for short term fixes just to chase numbers but after that use natural foods.

As for liquid cheap chemicals I do not believe TM or Hans-Werner suggested reefers use these. I do not recall TM offers quick magic bottle of PO4 fix (I might be wrong it is easy money).
I believe we do that on this site quite well. Just add this PO4 or NO3 fertilizer to your tank and watch the magic algae grow. Once you have that beautiful algae growing let’s do Rip Clean …. Rinse and repeat…
Copy protected by R2R members…

You know a natural food is going to bio available but it's total conjecture to say dosing a liquid will be.

Here is example of what Hans-Werner states:

Post in thread 'Wanting to start my SPS journey'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/wanting-to-start-my-sps-journey.1032835/post-12167963

Based on that we can safely say efficient feeding is required. There is insight into what that is vs. just the use of generic terms like “natural foods” etc…

Your post is too generic and really doesn’t add value to the discussion of Phos feed and Phos Start.

What I would find insightful in Reef Chemistry forum is the specific psychobabble etc… that you believe that TM is using and hopefully TM @Hans-Werner and @Lou Ekus can provide some insight or explanation.

For example I find Randy suggestion that carbon dosing will do the same interesting (post 6).
I suspect these products are intended for systems that have low/zero PO4 and carbon dosing wouldn’t help.

 

[jda]

Just from my perspective, my opinion of any of the TM folks has degraded in the last year. They have been around to discuss some of their products and most responses have come down to experience, research or a secret. I have no desire for a company to divulge their secrets but when asked for some proof or explanation to show that their conclusions are accurate, I expect more than "prove that they do not work" as the response. Even the studies that they post do not explain what they are claiming. I have not used these and I will not, but if I to grade them, they would lean more towards bogus than legit... but how much is unknown since the products truly are a black box. I don't supplement with black boxes.

 

[tetonair]

Just to add some context, these two products have been developed by Hans- Werner Balling (If you are not aware the Balling method uses his name for a reason).

I am really confused how you can state that TM or Hans-Werner methods are psychobabble or unproven theories but you are entitled to your opinions.




As for liquid cheap chemicals I do not believe TM or Hans-Werner suggested reefers use these. I do not recall TM offers quick magic bottle of PO4 fix (I might be wrong it is easy money).
I believe we do that on this site quite well. Just add this PO4 or NO3 fertilizer to your tank and watch the magic algae grow. Once you have that beautiful algae growing let’s do Rip Clean …. Rinse and repeat…
Copy protected by R2R members…


Here is example of what Hans-Werner states:

Post in thread 'Wanting to start my SPS journey'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/wanting-to-start-my-sps-journey.1032835/post-12167963

Based on that we can safely say efficient feeding is required. There is insight into what that is vs. just the use of generic terms like “natural foods” etc…

Your post is too generic and really doesn’t add value to the discussion of Phos feed and Phos Start.

What I would find insightful in Reef Chemistry forum is the specific psychobabble etc… that you believe that TM is using and hopefully TM @Hans-Werner and @Lou Ekus can provide some insight or explanation.

For example I find Randy suggestion that carbon dosing will do the same interesting (post 6).
I suspect these products are intended for systems that have low/zero PO4 and carbon dosing wouldn’t help.

Seems like this is a good place for sharing actual experience.
Here is mine just 14days of dosing Phos-Start po4 has gone from .01 to .13. Nitrate is 1.3. Ph8.1 Alk 10. Ca 430 Mag 1540.
Tank is just about 3months old. Algae has actually subsided since the use of PS.

 

[Big E]

Just to add some context, these two products have been developed by Hans- Werner Balling (If you are not aware the Balling method uses his name for a reason).

I am really confused how you can state that TM or Hans-Werner methods are psychobabble or unproven theories but you are entitled to your opinions.




As for liquid cheap chemicals I do not believe TM or Hans-Werner suggested reefers use these. I do not recall TM offers quick magic bottle of PO4 fix (I might be wrong it is easy money).
I believe we do that on this site quite well. Just add this PO4 or NO3 fertilizer to your tank and watch the magic algae grow. Once you have that beautiful algae growing let’s do Rip Clean …. Rinse and repeat…
Copy protected by R2R members…


Here is example of what Hans-Werner states:

Post in thread 'Wanting to start my SPS journey'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/wanting-to-start-my-sps-journey.1032835/post-12167963

Based on that we can safely say efficient feeding is required. There is insight into what that is vs. just the use of generic terms like “natural foods” etc…

Your post is too generic and really doesn’t add value to the discussion of Phos feed and Phos Start.

What I would find insightful in Reef Chemistry forum is the specific psychobabble etc… that you believe that TM is using and hopefully TM @Hans-Werner and @Lou Ekus can provide some insight or explanation.

For example I find Randy suggestion that carbon dosing will do the same interesting (post 6).
I suspect these products are intended for systems that have low/zero PO4 and carbon dosing wouldn’t help.

Did you watch the video? Please tell me how dosing a Po4 liquid & the Tropic marin product are any different? Because some dude in a lab tells you so standing in front of a tank that has about the easiest corals ever kept in this hobby and two chromis? Pyschobabble.........he claims the powder won't produce algae growh, the corals take it up, need I add more? These are just comments they mean nothing.

Have you ever thought where those particles are going? How about into the crevices of your reef rock and or float around for algae already in the tank to grab. So you really believe that the corals will grab the particles but algae won't............lol. I don't believe his claim. Why not set up a tank with live rock that is mostly bare and two chromis and no clean up crew and see what happens in a few months.

What's the explanation for the flouride, bromide, and iodide. Algae and corals both eat that stuff.

I'm sorry you don't think my experience and opinions matter or aren't useful..............did you want me name specific products to get the job done? I've been down the low Po4 road and have walked people through the method I suggest. Adding PO4 liquid and then once up to desired level feed/add fish and or use a coral food as these foods are high in Po4, natural and bio available to corals and bacteria.

Natural foods for fish-- shrimps, clams, mussels, salmon, nori ect. you buy at your local fish or grocery store chop up in a food processor and make your own frozen fish food.

Commercial--- Larrys and Rods frozen, Reef Roids, Reef Nutrition products. Frozen mysis, reef plankton, squid and on and on just read the labels of these products and what they contain.

I don't agree with Hans Werner/ and or Lou on all matters reef.......some I do.
Not sure where you were going with that.

I don't see anything special or ground breaking about this product.
Only difference I see is he wants you locked into dosing this product at an ongoing basis.

The OP asked for comments/opinions on the product.......I gave mine.

 

[jda]

I don't think that anybody should defend or idolize a reef manufacturer anymore. They will just disappoint you. None of them have any labs or do any kinds of long term experiments or anything. The just scan the literature for ideas and drop some of them into a bottle. I am not saying that all of the products are bad, but some of them sure are.

TM just put out a fish food with CBD in it. They state that this increases the life of fish, or something like that. I have fish that are 20 years old, so have they been testing this for 20 years, and how did they determine how much longer a fish lived? They like used a study from 2022 with freshwater talapia (grown for meat) and really only done to show that CBD might have some benefit beyond mammals and to see if similar receptors work the same way. TM puts some pretty wild claims on the package like they are facts. They flat out state that this will make fish live longer - how in the world would they know that? The surely did not start testing it a few decades ago since it would have been smarter to get into human CBD and make a killing.

In most of these cases, the reefers that run these companies are much more worthy of trust than the businessmen.

Maybe this is just me... In any case, I would treat every product with skepticism when you use it. It might just save you some time, effort and money.