Thoughts on adding to the cycling tank

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Agreed on your points, the evidence is sound. I also have a question of sequence/ timing for the addition of PNS Substrate Sauce when cycling with turbostart. Here is my hypothetical protocol:
Day 1

• 1: Add Nitrocycle to fresh salt water in tank to achieve .3 PPM ammonia across system
• 2: Add Turbostart per recommendation
• 3: Add PNS Substrate Sauce; entire bottle day?

My consideration is, if adding the nitrite consuming strains in PNS sauce, will it decrease development of nitrifying colonies otherwise needing to manifest at large in the system? If so, should one wait 24 hours or so once the ammonia is being processed and nitrites are up? This would be adding PNS Substrate on Day 2 of the cycle.

To be clear, PNSB do consume (assimilate) nitrite, but they do not perform nitrite oxidation. I don't see much of an issue with adding simultaneously, since PNSB love light and are primarily anaerobic, whereas nitrifiers tend to dislike light and are primarily aerobic; in other words, they occupy starkly different niches. That being said, there would be no issue adding the PNSB later, maybe after nitrate begins to appear (Rhodopseudomonas palustris, one of the two species in PNS Substrate Sauce, is a denitrifier). I wouldn't necessarily advise adding the whole bottle though, since each full dose of 1.25 ml/gal raises PO4 by ~0.05 ppm (just add the full dose, assuming very low PO4 level before dosing). Note that the nitrifiers require some PO4 for growth, of course. Also, at least some nitrite oxidizers (e.g., Nitrobacter) are cobalamin (vitamin B12) dependent and will exhibit very poor growth without some form of B12 supplementation.

 

[reeflection]

To be clear, PNSB do consume (assimilate) nitrite, but they do not perform nitrite oxidation. I don't see much of an issue with adding simultaneously, since PNSB love light and are primarily anaerobic, whereas nitrifiers tend to dislike light and are primarily aerobic; in other words, they occupy starkly different niches. That being said, there would be no issue adding the PNSB later, maybe after nitrate begins to appear (Rhodopseudomonas palustris, one of the two species in PNS Substrate Sauce, is a denitrifier). I wouldn't necessarily advise adding the whole bottle though, since each full dose of 1.25 ml/gal raises PO4 by ~0.05 ppm (just add the full dose, assuming very low PO4 level before dosing). Note that the nitrifiers require some PO4 for growth, of course. Also, at least some nitrite oxidizers (e.g., Nitrobacter) are cobalamin (vitamin B12) dependent and will exhibit very poor growth without some form of B12 supplementation.

Hi, I have a question and hopefully you have an answer. I'm currently dosing pns sauce daily and have been for about 2 weeks now and just started dosing pns yellow sno 2 days ago to provide B12 for the bacteria. I'm hoping to accomplish very minimal water changes if any at all with this combination. My question is do you see any value in dosing pns probio in conjunction with what I'm already dosing. I'm having a tuff time getting nitrates to come down, currently they are at about 37ppm, the only live stock in the tank currently are 2 banggai cardinalfish which seem to be doing fine with the elevated nitrates. Tank was setup March 17 and completed it's cycling 6 days later. Thank you so very much on any guidance on this matter.
Best regards
Mike

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Hi, I have a question and hopefully you have an answer. I'm currently dosing pns sauce daily and have been for about 2 weeks now and just started dosing pns yellow sno 2 days ago to provide B12 for the bacteria. I'm hoping to accomplish very minimal water changes if any at all with this combination. My question is do you see any value in dosing pns probio in conjunction with what I'm already dosing. I'm having a tuff time getting nitrates to come down, currently they are at about 37ppm, the only live stock in the tank currently are 2 banggai cardinalfish which seem to be doing fine with the elevated nitrates. Tank was setup March 17 and completed it's cycling 6 days later. Thank you so very much on any guidance on this matter.
Best regards
Mike

Hi Mike. The first thing would be ensuring that there's an abundance of anaerobic habitat, as denitrification (at least as it is performed by all the denitrifiers I know of) cannot occur in the presence of oxygen. Two weeks is a reasonable amount of time, but I don't see an onset of exponential growth until around Day 8 under ideal conditions, so you could still see a drop in the coming days. That of course assumes that the bacteria successfully colonized the medium (there's no way to accurately predict from afar the outcome of competitive interactions with other microbes in other systems, where every system and therefore every microbiome is unique). The YelloSno is great, but if you're adding it solely as a source of B12, you might benefit from halving the dose (a little B12 goes a long way). The denitrifying species in Substrate Sauce is Rhodopseudomonas palustris TIE-1 (the other species in Sauce, Rhodospirillum rubrum, is not a denitrifier). Rhodopseudomonas palustris TIE-1 is the sole species in ProBio. So you might find that adding both would be redundant and take the answer as a 'no.' On the other hand, increasing the population of R. palustris certainly could help reduce nitrates in both the short and long term (particularly if it helps to establish a permanent, resident population). I assume some of the nitrate is derived from the ammonia you originally added (i.e., didn't go low and then spike back up)?

Sorry I couldn't offer anything more conclusive here, hopefully reduced feedings for the time being (including YelloSno) can keep you at manageable levels before you see a more substantial decrease via more active denitrification.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

With my tank cycle started I am thinking of adding some PNS substrate starter bacteria or Aquaforest Life Bio Fil to the system for more bacteria diversity. Anyone have any thoughts or experience with this?

I would look more into the aquaforest life source. Will have microfauna bacteria etc. Another good source you could do is order from tampa bay live rocks. They bring rocks out to the gulf and drop then harvest later. All sorts of life. You can either buy it with mostly everything still on or buy some that are cleaned up. If you get live rock and want to keep diversity with certain hitch hikers, you will want to acclimate. As these come from ocean which will have a different makeup than the tank. You could put in quarantine in small tank to id any unwanted pests and to slowly convert to salt you use.

 

[reeflection]

Hi Mike. The first thing would be ensuring that there's an abundance of anaerobic habitat, as denitrification (at least as it is performed by all the denitrifiers I know of) cannot occur in the presence of oxygen. Two weeks is a reasonable amount of time, but I don't see an onset of exponential growth until around Day 8 under ideal conditions, so you could still see a drop in the coming days. That of course assumes that the bacteria successfully colonized the medium (there's no way to accurately predict from afar the outcome of competitive interactions with other microbes in other systems, where every system and therefore every microbiome is unique). The YelloSno is great, but if you're adding it solely as a source of B12, you might benefit from halving the dose (a little B12 goes a long way). The denitrifying species in Substrate Sauce is Rhodopseudomonas palustris TIE-1 (the other species in Sauce, Rhodospirillum rubrum, is not a denitrifier). Rhodopseudomonas palustris TIE-1 is the sole species in ProBio. So you might find that adding both would be redundant and take the answer as a 'no.' On the other hand, increasing the population of R. palustris certainly could help reduce nitrates in both the short and long term (particularly if it helps to establish a permanent, resident population). I assume some of the nitrate is derived from the ammonia you originally added (i.e., didn't go low and then spike back up)?

Sorry I couldn't offer anything more conclusive here, hopefully reduced feedings for the time being (including YelloSno) can keep you at manageable levels before you see a more substantial decrease via more active denitrification.

1st off thank you for responding to my question, I'm super intrigued by your product and have been trying to soak up as much information as I can about your products, heck just finished watching you on rappin with reefbum from 6 months ago not to mention the write ups done by Taras, I've read numerous times on this bacteria. I'm just gonna keep going the way I've been going, which is to continue dosing until I see positive results, which I already have in the drop of nitrates, but I believe in this product and I believe with out a doubt that my system can be a bacteria driven system with this product, which is my ultimate goal and to stay away from all the gear/hardware. I've been in the hobby since 96 but just recently dove back in after being away from the hobby since 08 and seeing all the new ways folks are reek keeping is super cool... and I'm glad to have stumbled upon your product! Thanks again for your time

Best regards
Mike

 

[liddojunior]

Coral plugs add great diversity!