Thoughts on methods of eliminating water changes ?

[Scarybo]

No, just referring to the standard kH, Ca, Mg, Nitrate, Phosphate, pH, salinity, etc. ICP-OES is the best thing we have to us right now at an affordable price for trace elements AFAIK but I also believe it to be only useful for long term analysis and not reliable enough to take action on with a single or even a couple results.

I personally, oddly enough, don't test all to often if at all minus just using my eyes on the tank unless I'm doing one of those comparison threads or experimenting with something. I have done everything in those threads I linked to above in comparing test kits out of pure curiosity and hope to help others. Same thing with the saltmix parameter thread in my signature. I have never had plans or ever will have plans to use anything other then basic IO in the long run.

So, basically I have no bone in this fight so to say or reason to be biased for or against any of them. I just want the truth and knowledge.

Okay... This gives me some clarity on your thinking. I agree ICP is useless for most of the standard tests you listed. (kH, Ca, Mg,Phosphate, pH, Salinity). By the time you get the results back the levels would have changed substantially. I've read several of your threads you posted above, and understand you analysis that ICP isnt the best for advanced testing, but it is the option that is available to most hobbyists.

Observation is the best tool IMO for monitoring your tank. My point is I like to use some type of testing before I react. I use it as a supplement to changes I am seeing in my tank. I feel by using that strategy it prevents the urge to react rashly and reduces the chances I exacerbate a situation by moving blindly.

Thank you for taking the time to explain.

 

[Jstn]

This is what I disagree with. I don't believe getting an ICP-OES test done as better then just using hobby test kits. In fact ICP-OES can be very misleading and can cause an overdose of something that's not needed at worse or at best dosing of something not needed. It gives some interesting information and I'm not saying don't do it but be aware it's most useful for tracking over time and could still be erroneous.

Don't get me wrong. ICP analysis can be very well done. However, we don't know the methods performed by those providing ICP-OES testing to us.

And yes, I have some experience with getting ICP among several other methods of testing done. I have found it no more accurate or reliable then what I have done with many other test kits.

I have found precisely that.

If some toxic event is happening the wait to get an ICP-OES test back may be to late. And may not show anything wrong.

As you also pointed out a single ICP-OES test that we have available to send in for is not good for individual indicators. A trend is more useful and for trying to use this as a method to mitigate toxic substances doesn't seem very stable to me.

No, just referring to the standard kH, Ca, Mg, Nitrate, Phosphate, pH, salinity, etc. ICP-OES is the best thing we have to us right now at an affordable price for trace elements AFAIK but I also believe it to be only useful for long term analysis and not reliable enough to take action on with a single or even a couple results.

I personally, oddly enough, don't test all to often if at all minus just using my eyes on the tank unless I'm doing one of those comparison threads or experimenting with something. I have done everything in those threads I linked to above in comparing test kits out of pure curiosity and hope to help others. Same thing with the saltmix parameter thread in my signature. I have never had plans or ever will have plans to use anything other then basic IO in the long run.

So, basically I have no bone in this fight so to say or reason to be biased for or against any of them. I just want the truth and knowledge.

So basically you have no facts just opinions which you presented strongly how ICP limits makes is unreliable compared to your test kits but then back it up by saying your test kits are for non trace elements? It seems your arguments are flawed, perhaps you should leave the science for paid scientists.

 

[Mark Gray]

Will this mean that if anyone (as me) using the three part system - NaHCO3, CaCl and the normal salt premix (sometimes named NaCl free salt, sometimes named mineral salt but in reality - it is a premix containing all that a good sea salt need minuses the pure NaCl) – does not need any or lesser WC ?

I have recognize that using this type of Balling – I have to change around 3 litres a week with new fresh water in order to have a stable salinity. It will be 4 % monthly

Sincerely Lasse

OK you have gone above me I am going to have to spend some time reading now lol

 

[jason2459]

So basically you have no facts just opinions which you presented strongly how ICP limits makes is unreliable compared to your test kits but then back it up by saying your test kits are for non trace elements? It seems your arguments are flawed, perhaps you should leave the science for paid scientists.

My facts of the lack of accuracy of trace and even major elements are based on comparison of ICP-OES vs ICP-OES vs other methods of samples that I've sent in numerous times, other's testings and observations, discussions with those that study seawater and chemistry books on seawater.

My facts may be flawed but they are what I know as of right now. If wrong I'm more then happy to learn.

I'd rather not let the paid scientists have all the fun. [emoji4]


Edit: and my stance is that many of the hobby test kits I've used performed just as well as any test result from a sample sent out (including for icp-oes). And in some instances trusted more so.

 

[Daski]

Need help pls...
Do I need to dip my anemone since my small tank has a lot of bugs and move it to another tank?

 

[Jstn]

My facts of the lack of accuracy of trace and even major elements are based on comparison of ICP-OES vs ICP-OES vs other methods of samples that I've sent in numerous times, other's testings and observations, discussions with those that study seawater and chemistry books on seawater.

I'd rather not let the paid scientists have all the fun. [emoji4]

First off different samples from different days will have different values on different instruments; You need to have a control sample to send and tank water to get accurate details, or better yet a NIST standard. And if you want to play in the science field adopt a methodical approach and support arguments with data, you keep saying you have different values but I have not seen one parameter listed or discussed. Were these samples prepared on the same day at the same time in the same way? If not your "study" is just anecdotal at best.

 

[jason2459]

First off different samples from different days will have different values on different instruments; You need to have a control sample to send and tank water to get accurate details, or better yet a NIST standard. And if you want to play in the science field adopt a methodical approach and support arguments with data, you keep saying you have different values but I have not seen one parameter listed or discussed. Were these samples prepared on the same day at the same time in the same way? If not your "study" is just anecdotal at best.

Then you have not read my threads above. I have sent multiple samples from the same volume on the same day to the same place and different places. I have, as stated, done so more of most recently that I need to get going on writing up.


And please do read through those threads and ask more questions. And if you have a suggestion on how else to test please let me know. I am more then willing to do so. I have already done so in other threads like my Al leaching thread.

Edit: also my saltmix thread is all about sending in to ICP- OES along with my own testing of the same sample.

 

[Scarybo]

Need help pls...
Do I need to dip my anemone since my small tank has a lot of bugs and move it to another tank?

dont dip !!

 

[jason2459]

So, when I answered previously I have some experience in sending in samples for ICP-OES that was being sarcastic. I've spent a lot on ICP-OES testing and very familiar with how it's results compare to hobby kits.

 

[leahfiish]

I've only skimmed through this thread but I think it's definitely viable to have a successful tank without water changes. But water changes are also a good tool in a non complex maintenance routine. I usually recommend small water changes, 10-20% every 1-2 weeks to just help keep everything balanced and to promote good maintenance habits. But once people become more in tune with their tank, how much to feed and dose, etc, I usually tell people that they can cut back on water changes. As long as they can keep nitrates and phosphates down to prevent algae, I don't necessarily see a big benefit to continuing with weekly water changes. For example, if you have a well established tank that you are doing nopox on to keep your nitrates and phosphate low, I just don't see any real reason to do a water change other than to replace trace elements. Also I wonder how much this varies for LPS vs SPS tanks.

 

[jason2459]

http://www.nanoscience.co.jp/surface_analysis/pdf/icp-oes-ms-detection-limit-guidance-BR023.pdf

Seawater could pose issues and affect those limits.

"The detection limits are theoretical best case scenarios assuming there are no spectral interferences affecting
the best isotope or wavelength for a given element. For any given determination, the actual method detection
limit can be an order of magnitude higher or more. Use this as a guide, not absolute information"

 

[sneub]

While water changes are never a perfect solution for adding or removing chemicals from a tank, they can make a big difference over time:
Here's what changing 30% monthly accomplishes for something that would otherwise just accumulate. The legend says nitrate, but it could be anything:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

Figure 2. Nitrate concentration as a function of time when performing water changes of 0% (no changes), 7.5%, 15% and 30% of the total volume each month. In this example, nitrate is present at 0 ppm at the start, and is accumulated at a rate of 0.1 ppm per day when no water is changed.

Thank you Randy, as always, you are very informative!

 

[TbyZ]

Here is some info to get you started--

Scan down to export of metal per macro algae. There's also a lot of good info on how much trace metals are in foods as well.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/rhf/feature/

I'd focus o

Here is some info to get you started--

That article points out that metals in the aquarium are a problem, & that macroalgae is an efficient way of removing them, along with toxic nutrients, so I can't relate that article to your original comment.

 

[Mark Gray]

I remember back in the mid to late 70's to mid 80's not doing water changes, but I did not have coral in that tank just 2 anemone's, I wish I remembered more about that tank but I remember it ran good it had a undergravle filter then I changed it over to wet dry with it wasn't bio balls but similar. Now to this tank I just started my fuge 2 weeks ago it is starting to take off now. Nitrate is at 15 phosphate is low I need to test again. I do have some alage in the display but since the fuge got started it seems to be going down I am still changing water but, I may stop and just see how it goes. Following this thread closely I was going to set up an auto change station but maybe not still not sure.

 

[jason2459]

I still use a UGF based on PaulB I run it in reverse (RUGF). I designed my sump around being able to have a "bio" zone that has a full plate on the bottom with an aquaclear powerhead running in reverse to feed it. I won't run a tank with out one.

 

[bif24701]

I still use a UGF based on PaulB I run it in reverse (RUGF). I designed my sump around being able to have a "bio" zone that has a full plate on the bottom with an aquaclear powerhead running in reverse to feed it. I won't run a tank with out one.

Sorry, could you expand on that further, it's possible I missed it and if so inform me.

 

[Big E]

That article points out that metals in the aquarium are a problem, & that macroalgae is an efficient way of removing them, along with toxic nutrients, so I can't relate that article to your original comment.

Lol...........you aren't getting the point. I'm referring you to the table I pointed out...............not the complete article.

Take note of the trace elements that algae consume in table 7 & all the info I posted is concerning algae uptake of trace elements. The total article isn't what I'm concerned with, it's to point out how much algae takes out of the water hence stealing it from the corals.

Look for data on macro algae uptake of trace metals and other elements.

The video is concerning algae and how it's detrimental to corals on the reef.

 

[Mark Gray]

Lol...........you aren't getting the point. I'm referring you to the table I pointed out...............not the complete article.

Take note of the trace elements that algae consume in table 7 & all the info I posted is concerning algae uptake of trace elements. The total article isn't what I'm concerned with, it's to point out how much algae takes out of the water hence stealing it from the corals.

The video is concerning algae and how it's detrimental to corals on the reef.

I agree with you to a point but it is a very easy way to control nutrient and a lot of it, I am still experimenting with mine right now but I believe it will be easier maybe I am wrong but to dose trace elements and use the agale to keep the nutrients out

 

[TbyZ]

Lol...........you aren't getting the point. I'm referring you to the table I pointed out...............not the complete article.

Take note of the trace elements that algae consume in table 7 & all the info I posted is concerning algae uptake of trace elements. The total article isn't what I'm concerned with, it's to point out how much algae takes out of the water hence stealing it from the corals.

The video is concerning algae and how it's detrimental to corals on the reef.

I don't know what you are LOL about. I just pointed out what the article is about in completeness.

I use an algae scrubber, I believe the algae is microalgae. Your list showed that Gracilaria Parvispora dry weight analysis: Potassium @ 13.54%

I measure potassium & rarely have to dose it.

 

[bif24701]

For my personnel experiences, this is what I have witnessed.

NO3 and PO4 reduction is a nonissue if you are using the correct equipment, refugium, and some carbon dosing.

Less frequent WC have resulted in better looking display, less dinos and cyano.

However I notice my refugium suffers from lack of water changes I assume is Iron depletion. I hope is resolved by adding Seachem Iron.

In a 300 gallon system I was changing 100gallons every week-2weeks, I have now chosen 3-4 weeks and for the past 4 months seems a perfect balance of supporting the macro algae needs while not flooding the system with elements that dinos and cyano seem to feed on.

Had anyone else see this effect????