Thoughts on methods of eliminating water changes ?

That said, I have been reading and thinking about this a lot as of late. Why do we do water changes?

Personally, I see two reasons for water changes:

1. Removal of pollutants from the water.

2. Nutrient replenishment.

I believe what we're speaking of is Dutch Synthetic Reefing. As I understand DSR, ( please correct me if I am saying something wrong or inaccurate), the idea behind this method is uber filtration combined with nutrient replenishment. No water changes, only the replacement of what's lost through evaporation.
 
All waste. Fish poop/pee, decaying food/organics, dead algae, ect...

You mean a bacterial soup - because it will be that in the water rather soon - in a matter of hours or days. What you think is waste in the gravel or in the filter is in reality just bacteria populations and some organic matter that will take some days before it’s broken down. And its food for snails, sea cucumbers, hermits, worms, sand sea stars and other critters. And if you stir it up – your corals and other filter feeders get bacterial plankton. It’s no waste – it’s a resource if you know how to use it.

No - but to drink my pee is probably the only thing that I have not done with pee - yet - However there is an India philosophy school that says that you should drink your morning pee in order to stay calm the rest of the day :)

Sincerely Lasse
 
Water changes in my opinion have become less necessary as the hobby has evolved. Water changes for nutrient export is no longer needed. Now hobbyist are able to strip their water of most nutrients. In some tanks it has become necessary to add artificial sources (stump remover) because of this success. Using water changes to replace trace elements is flawed in my opinion. We are unable to test accurately at home. Also some trace elements are used faster then other elements. A water change cannot compensate for this uneven rate of depletion. Red Sea's system of trace element replacement was a great start. It replaces trace elements based on the tanks uptake of Cal -Alk. I think Triton has moved it to the next level. The concept of trying to replicate NSW makes sense to me. I understand that ICP testing isnt perfect and it cannot test for every trace element but it is better then blindly adding elements. The hobby continues to evolve. I remember undergravel filters and air-stone protein skimmers.
 
I think it's a great Idea, it's one inch of hammer for every 10 gallons of water.


Yeah that will never dissolve that's why I use steam

iron.jpg
 
All waste. Fish poop/pee, decaying food/organics, dead algae, ect...
By that theory if someone had very low nutrients and didn't do water changes vs someone that did 20% weekly water changes on thier overstocked tank, yet still had N of 60, would this be considered cleaner water?

A different example. A septic field is spread out across someone's yard with their well 30 feet away. Should they drink their water? Benificial bacteria cleans.
 
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By that theory if someone had very low nutrients and didn't do water changes vs someone that did 20% weekly water changes on thier overstocked tank, yet still had N of 60, would this be considered cleaner water?

A different example. A septic field is spread out across someone's yard with their well 30 feet away. Should they drink their water? Benificial bacteria cleans.
Based on certain parameters maybe yes. We cannot base on what is "clean" by our immune systems. Most of us would get ill from drinking water from a stream or river. These streams or rivers provide life to many other animals. Our "civilization" has removed that immunity from our bodies. We arent exposed to the volume of bacteria we were exposed to in the past.The ocean is a complete eco system. The waste is diluted by the immense volume of water. Bacteria, filter feeders, and creatures purify it to levels that are compatible to it's inhabitants. What we are trying to do with our tanks is create an artificial eco system. The biggest obstacle to creating that system is ...US the hobbyist. Most changes in an eco system happen slowly. We are impatient. I've seen many LPS and Soft tanks that have been "neglected" and have matured into complete systems that need minimal hobbyist intervention. SPS are harder because of their natural habitat. They inhabit reefs and tidal areas which have constant water motion. They have adapted to an environment that moves food in and waste out.
 
By that theory if someone had very low nutrients and didn't do water changes vs someone that did 20% weekly water changes on thier overstocked tank, yet still had N of 60, would this be considered cleaner water?

A different example. A septic field is spread out across someone's yard with their well 30 feet away. Should they drink their water? Benificial bacteria cleans.

First, let me say that I'm approaching this from an average hobbyists point of view or capabilities, not just experienced people.

There are so many variables in the tank. Some people don't like a lot if rock, thus less bacterial population (if they're not using a marine pure or something similar).

Of course beneficial bacteria cleans, but the majority of bacteria is aerobic bacteria which just handles ammonia and nitrites.

You have to find a way for constant denitrification in your tank. How would you accomplish this without a dsb, or on bare bottom tanks? Most coral tanks have a lot of flow, so most of the rock work is getting oxygenated.

Yes you can add bacteria, but is there just a denitrifying bacteria? No. They're all pretty much chemical band aids for the main cause. Then you have people that constantly add too much and have bacterial blooms.

I have 2 big jars of CaribSea Rubble Zone in my sump. I drilled holes in the container so water could pass through and put it in a low flow area. That's not even helping all that much for denitrification.

Again, maybe this is a topic for only advanced hobbyists, but I try to look at things the average person would go about them. Most people don't even understand the nitrogen cycle. They just know you're supposed to replace X amount of water every so often.
 
You mean a bacterial soup - because it will be that in the water rather soon - in a matter of hours or days. What you think is waste in the gravel or in the filter is in reality just bacteria populations and some organic matter that will take some days before it’s broken down. And its food for snails, sea cucumbers, hermits, worms, sand sea stars and other critters. And if you stir it up – your corals and other filter feeders get bacterial plankton. It’s no waste – it’s a resource if you know how to use it.

No - but to drink my pee is probably the only thing that I have not done with pee - yet - However there is an India philosophy school that says that you should drink your morning pee in order to stay calm the rest of the day :)

Sincerely Lasse

Well that theory wouldn't apply to a tank like mine because my fish will eat a clean up crew or any inverts/filter feeders. So this theory only applies to a reef safe environment then? I also don't keep corals, but my brother has a business selling frags. I have a FOWLR tank. How could I not do water changes without any of the above you mentioned?
 
Well that theory wouldn't apply to a tank like mine because my fish will eat a clean up crew or any inverts/filter feeders. So this theory only applies to a reef safe environment then? I also don't keep corals, but my brother has a business selling frags. I have a FOWLR tank. How could I not do water changes without any of the above you mentioned?
  • Live Rock would provide one level of filtration. It needs to be rock that is full of life. If dry rock it needs to be seeded with life.
  • Snails, Hermits, Sea Cucumbers arent necessary. Most people add snails that arent indigenous to reefs.
  • Seed your sand bed with sand shifting creatures. Your fish will eat some but i have never seen Fish completely deplete a properly functioning sand bed. It takes time for this bed to mature.
  • refugium in your sump area.
  • Carefully planned and timed addition of fish.
It is very possible to create a FOWLR tank that needs no water changes on a regular basis. It just requires patience. Each fish addition has to be carefully calculated not to overwhelm the balance once achieved. Most hobbyist want to add fishes in bunches. That is understandable. I do it myself but I understand that impulsiveness requires an offset (water changes, etc to reduce the rapid increase in nutrients. )
 
Personally, I see two reasons for water changes:

1. Removal of pollutants from the water.

2. Nutrient replenishment.

I believe what we're speaking of is Dutch Synthetic Reefing. As I understand DSR, ( please correct me if I am saying something wrong or inaccurate), the idea behind this method is uber filtration combined with nutrient replenishment. No water changes, only the replacement of what's lost through evaporation.

I am running DSR on my nano reef.

Yes, strong filtration and adequate flow are essential components, as they should be in any reef. The skimmer removes a lot. A powerfilter is also used to remove detritus after blasting the rocks and sand.

However, the key to DSR, as I see it, is full conscious control over the main parameters, testing the main (generally agreed, at least anecdotally) factors for coral growth (Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium, Strontium, Nitrate, Phosphate, Iron, Potassium, Boron and Iodide) and maintaining these levels as stable as possible. This is done by dosing pumps usually but some DSR members use a calcium reactor in combination or dose manually. Nitrate is dosed if nitrate is low until nitrate can be maintained at 2.5ppm. Phosphate is dosed until it can be maintained at 0.04ppm. If either of these nutrients get too high, then an iron-citrate mix is dosed periodically to precipitate phosphate (similar to lanthanum). The phosphate precipitate is then removed by the powerfilter or the skimmer. Nitrate is reduced by ramping up the dose of a vinegar-sugar mix. Eventually you can find a happy dosing regime that maintains all the nutrients at desired levels, but you have to test and adapt to figure that out.

In addition, as DSR allows you to make your own salt mix using analytical-grade chemicals with as litte impurity as possible, you can correct your water with an emergency water change or a reset should you need to. One example might be if you do an ICP test and you notice your sulfate-chloride ratio is off (whether that has any effect is moot), you can then correct that with ease. Another example, if your magnesium is too high due to an overdose, you can do a water change with your own salt mix that has the other main parameters actually matching your current water (because you have just tested these), but that is lower in magnesium to bring that element down. Another interesting note is that under DSR, you can keep salinity at 33ppt but maintain the other main factors to be at the desired levels. So there is less osmotic stress on the fish but the corals still get what they need.

For the most part, wet skimming and giving frags away because they're growing too fast is all the water changing that is required.

You can occassionally run carbon or GFO should you ever need to - the rules are not set in stone. I dose DIY KZ coral snow to improve clarity.

It is really quite an easy way of reefing, and it is certainly more economical on a larger tank. On my nano (100L tank), it's about even in terms of cost when comparing DSR with weekly 10-20% water changes, but I enjoy the testing and the learning and tweaking and the conscious control. In terms of effort, it is mostly automated. Obviously basic maintenance tasks cannot be avoided, such as cleaning the glass and emptying the skimmer, but it does make things nice and stable.

DSR differs from Triton in that:
  • there is no algae bed,
  • you can use UV and ozone if you want,
  • you can use a zeolite reactor to provide bacterioplankton,
  • there is no need for ICP testing (but you can do it if you want), rather you use tried and tested hobby-grade kits that are accurate enough and allow you to take immediate corrective action (not waiting a week for an ICP result),
  • it does not target NSW values but rather tries to find the target values that grow corals best.
Both Triton and DSR chase (and seem to achieve) the same goal (a thriving reef tank), I believe, but they approach it in slightly different ways. I see the Triton method as an ecosystem approach akin to organic farming with conscious control as far as possible. This requires more sump space and is, in my opinion, much more dynamic because it is such a holistic approach. Whether this dynamic ecosystem approach makes it harder to intervene and isolate cause and effect is something I am unsure about. I see DSR as a simple garden (with a weed mat) that is more manageable and a little less dynamic as I have slightly more granular control over the main parameters (rather than using four secret mixes that often end up needing to be supplemented with the main parameters separately because of different consumption rates in different tanks.
 
IMG_3885.JPG
Interesting article. To be honest, water changes scare me. The idea that stability is the key in any reef, by doing a water change, aren’t we adding to the instability? My alk runs 6.8-7.1 and nutrients are always reading almost undetectable, so my thinking is by doing a water change, alk is going up and nutrients are going even lower which is what I don’t want. I have done no water changes in 3 years now and dose/test everything from trace elements to nitrates to alk and calcium.
 
  • Live Rock would provide one level of filtration. It needs to be rock that is full of life. If dry rock it needs to be seeded with life.
  • Snails, Hermits, Sea Cucumbers arent necessary. Most people add snails that arent indigenous to reefs.
  • Seed your sand bed with sand shifting creatures. Your fish will eat some but i have never seen Fish completely deplete a properly functioning sand bed. It takes time for this bed to mature.
  • refugium in your sump area.
  • Carefully planned and timed addition of fish.
It is very possible to create a FOWLR tank that needs no water changes on a regular basis. It just requires patience. Each fish addition has to be carefully calculated not to overwhelm the balance once achieved. Most hobbyist want to add fishes in bunches. That is understandable. I do it myself but I understand that impulsiveness requires an offset (water changes, etc to reduce the rapid increase in nutrients. )

I have done everything you listed. Seeded the rock, bought wet live sand, and added fish more than a month apart simply because they're in QT longer than that. The only thing I haven't found are decent sand sifting creatures, but I have 3 wrasses that manage some of that.

What type of animals for the sand would you recommend for the sand, besides a diamond goby? Keep in mind there's a puffer, trigger, and tuskfish.

The little puffer, while not able to eat bigger animals, will take chunks out of them and kill them. The wrasses hunt the sand and rocks all day for pods. The trigger bites at inverts also.
 
I have done everything you listed. Seeded the rock, bought wet live sand, and added fish more than a month apart simply because they're in QT longer than that. The only thing I haven't found are decent sand sifting creatures, but I have 3 wrasses that manage some of that.

What type of animals for the sand would you recommend for the sand, besides a diamond goby? Keep in mind there's a puffer, trigger, and tuskfish.

The little puffer, while not able to eat bigger animals, will take chunks out of them and kill them. The wrasses hunt the sand and rocks all day for pods. The trigger bites at inverts also.
Adding fish a month apart seems slow to us but it is fast for an ecosystem. Just adding 1 fish over a 1 month period is an increase of 100% on the bacteria filter. You added them at a normal pace for most hobbyist but nature doesnt work on our time schedule. Over time the bacteria will adapt. Nature always adapts. The sand sifting creatures I am referring to are the various worms, stars, pods and other animals that we dont consider important but they are vital for a healthy reef.
 
Maintaining traces is one of the most difficult part for non WC, but introduction of impurities (via foods, air skimming or air scrubbing from skimmer usage and "hands in the water") is the key contributor to a failing tank. Unless you have all the test kit to measure, then you are down to a guessing games. After a couple of years looking at the same corals, you will learn along the way what to dose simply by looking at the specific corals. I believed all successful non-WC reefers out there has developed the ability to roughly guess what need to be dosed (traces and other supplement) by looking at certain corals that they owned for a very long time.
Thanks for the explanation. It certainly seems as though the reefers that have old great looking tanks with limited or no water changes are also the ones that can tell how things are going by simple observation.
I suspect that I'm a long way from that.

What was that middle bit about impurities from air skimming?


Tony
 
OK, I understand what you mean now.

Just to be clear to everyone, an "element" has a very specific meaning, and a "trace element" is even more specific. Hydrogen and oxygen are elements, water (H2O) is not. Water is an inorganic molecule. No organic molecule is an element. That's what was confusing. :)

I am speaking about "element" in general definition of something, not in chemical or scientific definition of elements. Sorry for the confusion. Pardon me, i am not good in english :)
 
Thanks for the explanation. It certainly seems as though the reefers that have old great looking tanks with limited or no water changes are also the ones that can tell how things are going by simple observation.
I suspect that I'm a long way from that.

What was that middle bit about impurities from air skimming?


Tony

Apart from removing nastiness, skimmer does help in oxygenation as well. Ever heard of Air Pollution Index?. In urban and city area with windows wide open, impurities introduction is unavoidable. What about air freshener, scented candles, perfumes, cooking fumes etc?. I think you should get the idea by now.
 
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Please post levels in your tank along with Bio load and tank size
With replies.
 
I don't do water change but i dose a lot of different stuff to make up. My system is 400g and 20% water change each month will cost me $35 in salt mix so it will be expensive. I kept my phosphate and nitrate low by using algea reactor and wet skim. Also I dose zeobak and zeostart3 to reduce nitrate and phosphate.
 
Maybe BRS can conduct a test running a sizable skimmer on RODI tank for a period of time and run an ICP/triton test on it. It should give us an idea the amount of contaminant going into our tank via skimmer @Ryanbrs please consider :D
 

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