Thoughts on methods of eliminating water changes ?

[Tradevg]

Well timed for this discussion thread.. the latest offering from Marine Depot...https://www.marinedepot.com/ATI_Lab...225483909&mc_cid=98e96af1bd&mc_eid=cd7895d15b ...

 

[Ryanbrs Verified Sponsor]

Three seperate systems or three tanks with one shared sump?

separate

 

[Ryanbrs Verified Sponsor]

I think a better question to ask is what SPS need to thrive and why. If this is the ultimate goal. And the problem is that we don't have the answer to that question yet. We have anecdotal evidence, frequent observations and best guesses. One of those is what I also hear frequently is that our SPS seem to feel/look better every time we do a water change. But we don't fully understand why, they just do.
If we could definitively answer why stable alkalinity is important, why nutrient levels are important, and so on, only then will we definitively say to what extent water changes benefit the SPS. Until then, all we can do is keep guessing based on prior experience and observations.

To that end, Triton seems to have developed a theory that if certain parameters are maintained, then it replicates the parameters of a system with frequent water changes. It happens to also conveniently follow what their ICP is capable of detecting. There is no solid fundamental science behind it. Nothing that explains why parameters are the way they are, other than that's what is typically found in NSW. Their theory is simple, SPS thrive in NSW, NSW has particular parameters, you maintain those parameters with our method, therefore your SPS will also thrive. But this is just a theory without any hard proof or explanation. What I want to know is why exactly SPS thrive in those parameters and what exactly causes problems when those parameters change.

I respect your desire for progress but 'Definitive' is likely just not a realistic word for the reef aquarium world. I say this because it's important to have realistic and achievable goals or we will always be disappointed with the results.

Even in the world of dog and cat food which likely has 1,000 times the research and available funds no one is even close to definitively proving the exact nutritional elements a dog or cat requires. Certainly not the precise role of each element and concentration. The reality is a lot of the research in this hobby is driven by the hobbyist. It certainly isn't always accurate but anecdotal evidence, frequent observations, and best guesses are the primary drivers of progress and it's important to respect these contributions.

However, in search for the 'perfect system,' I don't think I would blame anyone for taking the approach of first identifying a realistic and stable method which does emulate natural seawater parameters. This is the environment these organisms evolved around and a fairly obvious starting point. Achieving that is also an awesome launching point for the next evolution of knowledge of tweaking elements for incremental improvements.

I think a lot of people will agree automated daily water changes with the right salt mix are probably one of the best available methods of achieving this goal. How much you change each day to achieve that goal depends on the individual tank. Much of this thread is about exploring if there are other viable methods.

 

[Crashjack]

Do you all think the approach would be the same for each tank type or different? For example, I think I would put more effort into replacing elements with the SPS tank than LPS simply because the SPS tank may consume these elements faster and the resulting deficiencies may end up being more significant.

I would like to see a baseline... a tank with no water changes, maybe a skimmer, but no additions other than Ca, alk, and Mg.

 

[TbyZ]

Triton method is self fulfilling. They want you to use an algae filter.........guess what sucks up more trace elements than any corals. Do some research and you'll see the facts right in front of you.

reference please?

 

[TbyZ]

IMO, aeration may be the biggest benefit of a skimmer. When I turned mine off for a few months as an experiment, the biggest (only, really) impact was on aeration, which I could tell by the pH. Since I use limewater, the range of pH rose beyond where I wanted it to be, and I returned the skimmer to service.

Yes, they are an expensive ornamental aeration device

 

[TbyZ]

I will start this conversation by saying almost everyone I know who has an epic show stopper tank has one thing in common. They all have solid maintenance habits with a consistent water change schedule, some even automated. While not always true on LPS or softy tanks this is almost universally true with long term successful SPS dominant tanks.

That said, I have been reading and thinking about this a lot as of late. Why do we do water changes? Are there better ways of achieving the same goals? Why do some reefers have success without them and others seem to require frequent water changes? I am super curious what everyone thinks about the value of water changes. With everything we have learned about reefing in the last few decades how critical are they? There has been significant discussion about the Triton method in relation to this but I think the conversation absolutely goes well beyond that single commercial method or product.

I guess I'd like to start by focusing the conversation on what is the purpose of these water changes and what are the alternatives? In my mind, there are four main issues that a solid water change schedule addresses.

1. Some degree of major, minor and trace element replenishment.
2. Manage undesirable Nitrate and Phosphate build up.
3. Reduce undesirable yellowing pigments and odors from the tank.
4. Reduce general contaminant accumulation from impurities in foods, additives and unintentional additions from hands, kids, cleaning agents, air ...

I certainly don't think everyone should run out and stop water changes because they have been a pretty integral component of a vast majority of successful reef tanks but looking at this I have to say there seem to be much more effective and easier methods of achieving one though three and four is a bit of a mystery. Just for discussion, would a system with a calcium reactor, functional refugium/ATS, bag of carbon and an annual or semiannual change of a majority of the water achieve a good portion of the same goals with a lot less effort and expense?

More or less are these four functions the reasons you do water changes? Are there other significant reasons? Ideas on better ways to collectively achieve the same goals as a complete approach or method of reefing?

I saw via vid that you are going to test out the triton method on the 52 weeks of reefing system. Will be interesting.

 

[Scott.h]

We absolutely should, and we are improving. We are so far ahead than we were 15 years ago, or 10 for that matter, that it's not even funny. We are going from a theory to a theory, some prove to work better than others. But what's missing is the understanding behind those theories. Bioballs that you've mentioned was a theory, it was looked at like it was a great thing at the time. And it made perfect sense. Then the views changed. Then came ULNS, again sounded great and considered to be a must. They made perfect sense as well. Those views have been slowly changing. What else? LEDs? Great. Nope, we should have some old school T5. Go with zeovit? yes! or maybe aquaforest? sounds even better, they must have done their research and know what they are doing! What about triton? sure, forget those other methods, this is it. And all of this is done with little to no understanding of how it gets us to our goals. Just a theory, which sounds like it makes sense, yet to be crushed later by another commonly adopted theory with similar fundamentals. Yet, we seem to be improving. I can keep SPS I wouldn't even dream of having 10 years ago. At least until the next crash. But I can only imagine how much more successful we could be if methods we use were based on knowledge and not on hype.

That's true. Funny thing is over the years I've had, or tried about everything. I've pretty much had success with each thing I tried after tweaking. There is definitely more then one way to do things. I think for many of us here, if we didn't have something to mess with or tweak we'd end up losing interest in much of the hobby.

 

[klp]

You mean a bacterial soup - because it will be that in the water rather soon - in a matter of hours or days. What you think is waste in the gravel or in the filter is in reality just bacteria populations and some organic matter that will take some days before it’s broken down. And its food for snails, sea cucumbers, hermits, worms, sand sea stars and other critters. And if you stir it up – your corals and other filter feeders get bacterial plankton. It’s no waste – it’s a resource if you know how to use it.

No - but to drink my pee is probably the only thing that I have not done with pee - yet - However there is an India philosophy school that says that you should drink your morning pee in order to stay calm the rest of the day

Sincerely Lasse

The boxer Juan Manuel Marquez drank his pee for some time to replenish minerals until his nutritionist said he did not need to anymore. I think it was a mineral absorption issue as I remember. Worked for him. I would rather lose the fight personally. Maybe a little grape flavor....

 

[curiouser]

Fascinating discussion. The main consideration in this discussion is water changes. I would posit that most reef keepers who reliably stick to a water change schedule reliably do the other support activities for their reef tanks. So comparing those tanks with and without reliable water water changes is comparing those tanks with and without all the reliable support activities, including water changes.

 

[klp]

Adding fish a month apart seems slow to us but it is fast for an ecosystem. Just adding 1 fish over a 1 month period is an increase of 100% on the bacteria filter. You added them at a normal pace for most hobbyist but nature doesnt work on our time schedule. Over time the bacteria will adapt. Nature always adapts. The sand sifting creatures I am referring to are the various worms, stars, pods and other animals that we dont consider important but they are vital for a healthy reef.

What type of worms are you talking about. There are bristle and spaghetti worms that are used. Any other types?

 

[Scarybo]

What type of worms are you talking about. There are bristle and spaghetti worms that are used. Any other types?

I've never had a problem with either of those types. Some people avoid bristle worms. I pull big ones if they appear to be getting too large or the numbers get too big.

 

[Pete1968]

Most guys who dont do water changes , usually have a very small bioload

 

[Ryanbrs Verified Sponsor]

I saw via vid that you are going to test out the Triton method on the 52 weeks of reefing system. Will be interesting.

We are, we have been exploring the topic for a while and it seemed like a perfect opportunity to look at refugiums from another angle. The video will be released tomorrow. Some of the results will be fairly definitive such as can the fuge eliminate excess nitrate and phosphate build up in a near zero water change environment as well as some of the ICP results. However, a lot of it will be fairly anecdotal and based on visually assessing how the tank is doing. I certainly don't think we will identify anything related to the value of trace elements or matching NSW only that this method produces desired results with the one defining characteristic of very few water changes. As you can probably tell this topic is particularly interesting to me so I think we may see an update at all the relevant points. Really goes beyond Triton, they are the focal point right now because they have a critical mass of users doing this for a fairly substantial period of time but I think this thread and conversations like it is likely to produce some other effective approaches.

Supportive of the NSW and trace element discussion we are exploring some redundant A/B experiments at the shop. I am not sure what they will look like yet but it obviously takes some time to set up and produce results.

 

[Scarybo]

Most guys who dont do water changes , usually have a very small bioload

Not really. Water changes are not the best solution to control nutrients.

 

[Steve Ruddy]

The main issue with trace elements I believe is Ionic balance rather than "feeding" your corals. Understanding the Full Balling method gives a good picture of this. Most reefers only dose Ca Mg and Carbonate which inherently leads to a buildup of ionic imbalance. If you dose the complete Balling method or something compatible, then really water changes aren't necessary. But I believe even with that method, you are only estimating what trace elements are being absorbed in your system. The trace additives in each mixture of the 3 part is doing a good job replacing them but over long periods of time, the ionic balance will still be shifted as no 2 tanks can possibly use the same amounts. There is the logic that if your major elements are being consumed at a certain rate, that should correlate to the minor trace elements being consumed at a proportionate rate but I must believe that with the diverse possibility of livestock, that consumption should have a wide variable consumption rate as well. I think using the complete Balling method combined with a ULNS system such as Zeo or biopellets or Algae Scrubber you could probably go many months without changing but eventually would need to correct the ionic imbalance.

Agreed.

 

[Donovan Joannes]

Most guys who dont do water changes , usually have a very small bioload

I have 15 fishes in 75G (7 green chromis, anthias, LMB, mandy, blue hippo, scopas, saddle back nemo, yellow tail goby & dragon wrasse)....

 

[Lasse]

8 shrimps, 50 + hermits, 50 + snails, some crabs, 10 pyamas cardinal, 4 striped cardinals, 4 gobies of different species, 5 yellow wrasses, 3 other wrasses and one scoter blenny 300 liters -> 80 gallons. Three WC during 13 months - 70 liter / 18 gallons each time

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Elgringodiablo]

Hopefully this isn't too off topic, but I've been contemplating a Zeovit + Triton Hybrid and would love to see BRS test this concept out with their multitude of testing resources.

Maybe I am taking crazy pills, but I see Zeovit as a nutrient management system, while Triton is focused more on maintaining stable chemistry and trace elements while eliminating the need for water changes.

The big questions that come up are:
- Could you have the refugium and zeovit or would you have to ditch the fuge?
- Would the Triton Method 4 part additives be appropriate or Other Method?
- Would the Zeovit eliminate the need for GFO?
- Any harmful bacterial build ups from eliminating water changes but at the same time dosing zeobak, zeostart, zeofood, etc?

Perhaps I will try it myself at some point, but don't really have an ideal test subject available. Seems like it would be best to try to start from scratch on a new system.

 

[Ryanbrs Verified Sponsor]

Hopefully this isn't too off topic, but I've been contemplating a Zeovit + Triton Hybrid and would love to see BRS test this concept out with their multitude of testing resources.

Maybe I am taking crazy pills, but I see Zeovit as a nutrient management system, while Triton is focused more on maintaining stable chemistry and trace elements while eliminating the need for water changes.

The big questions that come up are:
- Could you have the refugium and zeovit or would you have to ditch the fuge?
- Would the Triton Method 4 part additives be appropriate or Other Method?
- Would the Zeovit eliminate the need for GFO?
- Any harmful bacterial build ups from eliminating water changes but at the same time dosing zeobak, zeostart, zeofood, etc?

Perhaps I will try it myself at some point, but don't really have an ideal test subject available. Seems like it would be best to try to start from scratch on a new system.

Zeovit in the US does not have a cal/alk/mag solution so you could certainly try using Zeovit as the nitrate and phosphate solution and Trition core 7 "other methods" as the major minor and trace element solution. Potentially combined with some of the zeo related nutritional elements like amino's and coral vitalizer but I wouldn't start with anything that adds other elements. Hard to say how it would work in the end but seems plausible. Certainly found a way to make it the most expensive tank in town : )