thoughts on Plumbing a new sump/tank

[reeferdale]

Hi all,
I’m designing the plumbing for my new system. It is a 270 gallon tank. I have a barracuda gold pump rated at over 4500 gph and I want to try to use this one pump for everything. The tank is drilled for a closed loop but I am flexible on whether I actually use a closed loop system or not.

The return of the pump will be split. It will feed the six 1†bulkheads already in the tank from the closed loop system and also run to my calcium reactor and skimmer. I will build a manifold for the return to handle these feeds. Depending on the needs of the skimmer (8†x 30†Bashsea) and the Calc reactor, I am not sure how much flow I am going to get for the six return bulkheads but it should be plenty. I will have individual valves on each of the 6 returns and I also have two Koralia Model 7 Magnum Pumps that I will run on an Apex controller for additional or side to side water movement.

My concerns are with the inlet side of the pump. I want to be able to draw water from the two 1½†closed loop bulkheads in the tank, but I want to be able to draw water from the sump for return to the tank also. So I need to ‘merge’ the tanks two closed loop output bulkheads in with the 2 outlet bulkheads from the sump and then have this manifold connect to the inlet of the pump. I will probably need to have valves on each of these so I can control how much the pump is drawing from the sump or the tank, keeping in mind I should probably let one of these be wide open so I do not restrict the inlet of the pump.

I am not overly concerned with a massive turnover of my sump, but it needs to be able to handle the overflow rate which will be the full siphon method, so maybe up to 2000 gph? I have 1†and 1 ½†overflow holes that I can select from and I will be able to use a valve to control the overflow rate if I have to. The sump is 48x24x12 (60 gallons), not very deep but it does have a large foot print. I plan to run this with only about 8-10" of water (45 gallons) and obviously check valves to prevent siphoning.

Also, I am not hell bent on having a closed loop. I was thinking I may just plug the closed loop return bulkheads in the tank, let the overflow run wide open, and only draw from the sump and feed the tank via the six bulkheads that were used for the closed loop (less the take off for my skimmer and reactor). My only concern is that the water will be flying through the sump pretty fast.

So, the obvious question is, has anyone else attempted this (successfully or not), and what are your thoughts?

Also, anyone else who has sump/plumbing/fluid dynamics experience is welcome to throw in their two cents.

Thanks
Dale

 

[revhtree Verified Admin]

Bump for you Dale!

 

[macawmagic]

from what I understand...you're trying to feed one pump from the sump and tank...

If the tank is above the sump (I would assume)...when power goes out...the whole tank will drain down to the sump through the "inlet" manifold. You either need another pump...or decide to either use this as a closed loop or return.

Hope that helps!

 

[macawmagic]

also...a 48 x 24 x 12 sump may be too small for 270 gallons of tank. I run that exact sump on 2 100 gal frag tanks. they are 6 x 2 x 1. I use a dart to run the tanks and skimmer. When the power turns off...I fill the sump to the exact rim. Like it actually goes onto the acrylic rim, but doesn't overflow at all. LOL It's as perfect as it can be.

My sump does have baffles in it. I have a 9" tall baffle 8" from one end. That section has the 2 drains and 2 7" filter socks in it. the next 24" has a 8" tall baffle for a refugium. And then the rest of the sump runs about 6" of water to keep the pump from sucking air.

 

[jelly]

When I put my dart on my tank I talk to my plumber neighbor.He told me that in order for me to get the right flow with the right pressure fromthe pump I would have to use 4 ¾” returns. If I went with more than 4 returns the flow is there but I won’t havethe pressure to give me a good current in the tank.

 

[reeferdale]

from what I understand...you're trying to feed one pump from the sump and tank...

If the tank is above the sump (I would assume)...when power goes out...the whole tank will drain down to the sump through the "inlet" manifold. You either need another pump...or decide to either use this as a closed loop or return.

Hope that helps!

thanks, I plan to add check valves to prevent any back siphon if power goes out, I may even add 2 of them becasue I understand your point.

 

[reeferdale]

When I put my dart on my tank I talk to my plumber neighbor.He told me that in order for me to get the right flow with the right pressure fromthe pump I would have to use 4 ¾” returns. If I went with more than 4 returns the flow is there but I won’t havethe pressure to give me a good current in the tank.

thanks - I will have valves on each return so I can easily turn off some feeds or restirct them. I also have the Korlias inside the tank

 

[reeferdale]

also...a 48 x 24 x 12 sump may be too small for 270 gallons of tank. I run that exact sump on 2 100 gal frag tanks. they are 6 x 2 x 1. I use a dart to run the tanks and skimmer. When the power turns off...I fill the sump to the exact rim. Like it actually goes onto the acrylic rim, but doesn't overflow at all. LOL It's as perfect as it can be.

My sump does have baffles in it. I have a 9" tall baffle 8" from one end. That section has the 2 drains and 2 7" filter socks in it. the next 24" has a 8" tall baffle for a refugium. And then the rest of the sump runs about 6" of water to keep the pump from sucking air.

hey, yeah I wanted the thing to be at least 16", I am thinking of lining the entire thing with 1/4" acrylic 16" high. Then I could run the sump with 10" or so of water and still have room too colllect siphon overflow, as I stated above, I plan to add check vales to all returns (possibly 2 on each return for insurance)

 

[boehm742]

Why exactly are you wanting to have your return suck water from your display? I guess this part is confusing me.

 

[macawmagic]

check valves will fail! ask anyone that has used them.

I guarantee that everyone on here will agree with me in saying...save up some money, buy a second pump and do it correctly! I know it hurts to wait, but it's the correct thing to do! It will save you A LOT of headaches in the long run...

 

[Murfman]

On my 300 I run two Darts on the Closed loop and one Dart on my return from my sump. You can see how it is plumbed on my build.

 

[Wy Renegade]

I don't think what you are wanting to do is actually possible the way you're describing it. The DT needs to be able to drain fully through the outlets, or it will overflow. The only way I can see that you can make this work would be to have all four drains draining into the sump and then pick up the water out of your sump with the pump and return it through the return holes. The problem with this, as was already pointed out, is that when the power shuts off, the water will drain through all the inlets and overflow the sump.

 

[Murfman]

And that would be an open loop, not a closed loop.

 

[reeferdale]

Why exactly are you wanting to have your return suck water from your display? I guess this part is confusing me.

The current tank is setup for a closed loop - 2 big outlets near the bottom (1 side and 1 back) and 6 inlets around the back and side of the tank near the top. Originally a pump was used for this as a closed loop system. I really do not want to run any more pumps than I have to. One of the goals of this buld is to reduce cost. I am going all LED and using a hot water tank heating setup as well. Beside the baracuda, I have a mag 24 and 2 mag 12's that I could use for return and feeding the reactor/skimmer. So it is not a matter of not having enough pumps, I was just trying to emulate the closed loop and also be able to use the pump for the sump return.

I am just looking for feedback before I try this. If it is not really practical thaen I don't want to spend the time building it just to tear it down and do a standard overflow/return.
So thanks for your response, the more people that drop bits of info on me the better.

I was just thinking that pulling water from the bottom, as well as the over flow would be 'better' and keep the water movment insode the tank more in motion. Like I said, I can plug these 2 bulk heads, have just my central overflow to the sump, and have the pump draw only from the sump to feed the 6 closed loop return holes.

 

[reeferdale]

check valves will fail! ask anyone that has used them.

I guarantee that everyone on here will agree with me in saying...save up some money, buy a second pump and do it correctly! I know it hurts to wait, but it's the correct thing to do! It will save you A LOT of headaches in the long run...

Thanks, this is the input I am looking for. Waiting is not the issue, I bought this tank last December and I just finished sanding and buffing it out so I am finally ready to start the LED rig and the sump design.

If get enough feedback that this will not work, or it is a big PITA, then that will save me from building it just to 'see'. I can move forward and just build the conventional overflow with sump return and be done with it. Beside the baracuda, I already have a mag 18 and 2 mag 12's (in the current tanks) I could use so it it is not a lack of pumps.
I want to run the least number of pumps I have to, trying to make this buld use less energy (LEDs and hot water heating going into this as well). I just figured with this size pump and the Koralias inside I should not need to run any more pumps.

thanks

 

[reeferdale]

ok, so based on the overflow issue and the fact that this will really not be a 'closed loop' I think I will probably use a pump for just the closed loop. Then I do not have to worry about any siphon from these 8 holes in the tank. While the 2 large output holes are a huge concern becasue they are way deep, even the 6 inlet holes are a good 7" below the surface and this would be a huge amount of water if a check valve failed.

So it looks like it would be safest to setup the existing closed loop, and use one of the 4 center overflows for sump return. The other 3 would be used for a full siphon overflow that I have plans for from beananimal on a 'differnt' forum. Thanks for pointing out the obvious, while it will require a second pump, better safe than sorry. We all know that the only time an issue happens is when you are not there to deal with it.

thanks