To QT or not to QT

[Davileet]

I have a 250 gallon reef tank with mature coral colonies and 12 fish (mostly tangs). I have never used a QT tank, and up until this point that has never came back to bite me. I recently made a couple additions to the tank, one of which was a small blue hippo which I assume either introduced ich or was just the first to show white spots, the others were a powder blue and flame angel. My assumption is that the flame fin tang already residing in the tank has bullied the last two additions to the point that the majority all of the fish became stressed enough to gather ich. Bullying has since stopped and things have calmed down between the personalities.

For the last week or so the powder blue has gotten the worst of it and continues to look the worst by a good margin. The salfin and purple tang are having a good morning and look much better than yesterday, and I would say all the other fish no longer have any signs of ich. I have been feeding nori laced with Selcon 2x a day, along with feeding LRS Reef Frenzy. All fish are eating verosiously and openly, except the powder blue who I think is still eating in secret from the nori I strategically place around him. I am hopeful that this is turning tide in my favor, but I am pessimistic this is over yet.

I have been scouring these forums for opinions and procedures for the last few days, and I am finding myself pretty anxious to make the decision to pull all fish into a QT and risk losing fish I may not have lost otherwise, along with the personal stress and work of tearing down my reef to capture said fish. I have held off from adding snake oils being sold as ich killer/remover as I would prefer not to risk any of my corals.

I purchased a 40g breeder tank in preperation to act along with all the other necessities, but I am finding myself lost on exactly how to proceed with low risk.

Should I be anticipating large water changes every couple of days to fight ammonia spike, or should I be adding instant cycle with a hang on the back filter, or possibly pulling DT water over in hopes to bring some beneficial bacteria? I have read not to use seeded live rock since it hangs on to medications and such, but without a good bio filter to combat ammonia I am scared to put all of my fish at risk of spiking ammonia. If this was a single fish, I would have less worry and just go for it, but seeing as the entire school of fish in my tank would be going into QT I am quite worried. Suggestions/help would be appreciated.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I have a 250 gallon reef tank with mature coral colonies and 12 fish (mostly tangs). I have never used a QT tank, and up until this point that has never came back to bite me. I recently made a couple additions to the tank, one of which was a small blue hippo which I assume either introduced ich or was just the first to show white spots, the others were a powder blue and flame angel. My assumption is that the flame fin tang already residing in the tank has bullied the last two additions to the point that the majority all of the fish became stressed enough to gather ich. Bullying has since stopped and things have calmed down between the personalities.

For the last week or so the powder blue has gotten the worst of it and continues to look the worst by a good margin. The salfin and purple tang are having a good morning and look much better than yesterday, and I would say all the other fish no longer have any signs of ich. I have been feeding nori laced with Selcon 2x a day, along with feeding LRS Reef Frenzy. All fish are eating verosiously and openly, except the powder blue who I think is still eating in secret from the nori I strategically place around him. I am hopeful that this is turning tide in my favor, but I am pessimistic this is over yet.

I have been scouring these forums for opinions and procedures for the last few days, and I am finding myself pretty anxious to make the decision to pull all fish into a QT and risk losing fish I may not have lost otherwise, along with the personal stress and work of tearing down my reef to capture said fish. I have held off from adding snake oils being sold as ich killer/remover as I would prefer not to risk any of my corals.

I purchased a 40g breeder tank in preperation to act along with all the other necessities, but I am finding myself lost on exactly how to proceed with low risk.

Should I be anticipating large water changes every couple of days to fight ammonia spike, or should I be adding instant cycle with a hang on the back filter, or possibly pulling DT water over in hopes to bring some beneficial bacteria? I have read not to use seeded live rock since it hangs on to medications and such, but without a good bio filter to combat ammonia I am scared to put all of my fish at risk of spiking ammonia. If this was a single fish, I would have less worry and just go for it, but seeing as the entire school of fish in my tank would be going into QT I am quite worried. Suggestions/help would be appreciated.

Yes - avoid those "tonic" medications, they rarely, if ever, work on active ich infections.

One option would be to move a good portion of LR from your DT and run hyposalinity in the QT. 1.009 for 35 days. Copper is a better choice, but with that, you'll be chasing ammonia, since moving the LR over, as you mentioned, is problematic.

Remember that whichever direction you go, these treatments are not instantaneous...they take at least 72 hours to really turn the tide. Depending on how sick your fish are, they may not have that much time.

12 tangs in a 40 is going to be a challenge pretty much anyway you go.....they are going to have to stay there for a full fallow period, else they will get reinfected when you put them back. The fallow time is a minimum of 45 days at 81F to 75 days at 79 F. with more surety that it will work.

Just checking - how valuable are your corals compared to the fish? Another option would be to move all of the inverts to the 40 (accepting some losses) and run hypo in your display


Jay

 

[MnFish1]

I have a 250 gallon reef tank with mature coral colonies and 12 fish (mostly tangs). I have never used a QT tank, and up until this point that has never came back to bite me. I recently made a couple additions to the tank, one of which was a small blue hippo which I assume either introduced ich or was just the first to show white spots, the others were a powder blue and flame angel. My assumption is that the flame fin tang already residing in the tank has bullied the last two additions to the point that the majority all of the fish became stressed enough to gather ich. Bullying has since stopped and things have calmed down between the personalities.

For the last week or so the powder blue has gotten the worst of it and continues to look the worst by a good margin. The salfin and purple tang are having a good morning and look much better than yesterday, and I would say all the other fish no longer have any signs of ich. I have been feeding nori laced with Selcon 2x a day, along with feeding LRS Reef Frenzy. All fish are eating verosiously and openly, except the powder blue who I think is still eating in secret from the nori I strategically place around him. I am hopeful that this is turning tide in my favor, but I am pessimistic this is over yet.

I have been scouring these forums for opinions and procedures for the last few days, and I am finding myself pretty anxious to make the decision to pull all fish into a QT and risk losing fish I may not have lost otherwise, along with the personal stress and work of tearing down my reef to capture said fish. I purchased a 40g breeder tank in preperation to act along with all the other necessities, but I am finding myself lost on exactly how to proceed with low risk.

Should I be anticipating large water changes every couple of days to fight ammonia spike, or should I be adding instant cycle with a hang on the back filter, or possibly pulling DT water over in hopes to bring some beneficial bacteria? I have read not to use seeded live rock since it hangs on to medications and such, but without a good bio filter to combat ammonia I am scared to put all of my fish at risk of spiking ammonia. If this was a single fish, I would have less worry and just go for it, but seeing as the entire school of fish in my tank would be going into QT I am quite worried. Suggestions/help would be appreciated.

EDIT - I see @Jay Hemdal posted as I was writing this. I agree with what he said (as you can see below).

So this is an answer that could be 100's of pages long. But I'll give some of your questions a try.

1. There are people that manage Cryptocaryon (CI/ICH) without QT, etc. Often these tanks are more mature, have owners who have worked with fish /reef tanks longer, have lower stocking density, and various feeding habits. I'm going to assume for the sake of my answer - that you are wanting to discuss the other option. Some people also use Ozone/UV/Oxydators with this method. If you do elect to use this method - when you add fish you will need to be quite careful because there will likely be cryptocaryon in your tank - being passed from fish to fish.

2. The recommendation would be removing your fish to a QT tank and treating them with Copper for 30 days - while leaving your display tank 'fallow' of 45-76 days depending on what protocol you're using. With invertebrates/corals most people use the 76 day. if its a FOWLR (Fish only) - people sometimes raise the temperature to 81 and then do a 45 day allow period.

3. You would need some kind of ammonia removal plan - whether a HOB filter, added bacteria in a bottle or water changes - depending on the size of all of your fish - a 40 gallon tank for 30 days might be difficult

4. The fact that the fish look good one day does not mean the CI is gone - it may mean that the parasites have gone into the different stage of their life cycle - and can easily come back in 1-2 days. In fact one of the hallmarks of CI - as compared to say 'lymphocystis' - is the spots come and go as compared to 'staying'

5. If you're going to remove your fish, IMHO - the sooner the better. The longer you keep the fish in the tank, the more infectious particles may be produced.

6. This doesnt apply to you - since you have corals - but hypo salinity protocols can also be useful for a FOWLR tank. BUT - is it possible that you could remove your corals into another tank and then use hypo salinity in your main tank (I assume no - but it would avoid needing to remove all the fish).

7. A fish trap is often a way to take care of getting fish out - as well as a large net used during feeding time. Additionally - you can sometimes find it easier to get fish out later in the evening.

8. I do not think you need to put display tank water in your treatment tank - but it is important to carefully acclimate/match the parameters in the Hospital tank as carefully as possible.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

It's Always the darn blue hippo and powders.....


If you are unable to manage it in your display, You likely have no real option but to pull them out or treat.

Jay has solid points above. I would probably be grabbing a 60 breeder in addition to the 40 for that many fish.

 

[Hairyteeth]

If / when you go to remove fish I have good luck swooping them in large clear rectangle Containers paired with my handy red light at night, but even in the day the clear container always seems to be quicker than the net…also when I use my 40 breeder to qt I have black acrylic dividers I got made to give each fish their own space without having to share the whole tank and is easier for me to look at each fish, I know you’ve got a lot of fish…

 

[vetteguy53081]

It takes that one fish to send everything in the wrong direction
Quarantine is advantageous and eliminated the need to treat 200+ gallons while giving you ability to inspect close up
Your situation is unique and what Jay suggested may be best recourse
It’s rarely a specific fish that causes issues as I have a hepatus and powder blue who never caught a thing

 

[Davileet]

Thank you for the very quick replies.

Fish and corals add up to the thousands of dollars.
To clarify which fish I have, 2x clownfish, small blue hippo, medium purple and yellow tangs, medium flame fin, small flame angel, medium powder blue, 2x wrasses, pajama, and a salfin.

I have a large UV sterilizer that will be here tomorrow, and I realize this would only be helpful in management and not irradication. If this bout of ich manages to no longer show itself, but yet I believe its in the management stage, would it be worthwhile to have a QT tank setup from here on out?

I am not opposed to moving some live rock / buying some rubble from local shop and doing hyposalinity, that may be my best play here. I would be hard pressed to find rock without some kind of coral/mushroom growing on it in my DT, which I would assume die off from low salinity would make things worse. In this case, the risk of buying infected rock would be irrelevant as it will die off at hyposalinity.

I took off today with the intention of moving all the fish over to a QT, but started having second thoughts because of not having a cycled QT tank or good gameplan to handle it. Last thing I want to do is rush into something and do more harm than good even though I know time is of the essence.

I did purchase two 40g breeders assuming I would be doing something like BRS recommends in their recent QT ich series BRS QT and swapping all fish back and forth to clean QT tanks every couple of days. BRS method seems to be a hybrid of TTM and copper.

I wonder, would it be easier to split the fish up and deal with two or more 40g breeders for 76+ days doing hyposalinity, or just get a large QT tank?

Is the consensus that instant cycle and HOB for each is the means to keep ammonia down? Or does the copper process still anticipate and involve multiple water changes regardless of bio help to quell ammonia?

 

[MnFish1]

Thank you for the very quick replies.

Fish and corals add up to the thousands of dollars.
To clarify which fish I have, 2x clownfish, small blue hippo, medium purple and yellow tangs, medium flame fin, small flame angel, medium powder blue, 2x wrasses, pajama, and a salfin.

I have a large UV sterilizer that will be here tomorrow, and I realize this would only be helpful in management and not irradication. If this bout of ich manages to no longer show itself, but yet I believe its in the management stage, would it be worthwhile to have a QT tank setup from here on out?

I am not opposed to moving some live rock / buying some rubble from local shop and doing hyposalinity, that may be my best play here. I would be hard pressed to find rock without some kind of coral/mushroom growing on it in my DT, which I would assume die off from low salinity would make things worse. In this case, the risk of buying infected rock would be irrelevant as it will die off at hyposalinity.

I took off today with the intention of moving all the fish over to a QT, but started having second thoughts because of not having a cycled QT tank or good gameplan to handle it. Last thing I want to do is rush into something and do more harm than good even though I know time is of the essence.

I did purchase two 40g breeders assuming I would be doing something like BRS recommends in their recent QT ich series BRS QT and swapping all fish back and forth to clean QT tanks every couple of days. BRS method seems to be a hybrid of TTM and copper.

I wonder, would it be easier to split the fish up and deal with two or more 40g breeders for 76+ days doing hyposalinity, or just get a large QT tank?

Is the consensus that instant cycle and HOB for each is the means to keep ammonia down? Or does the copper process still anticipate and involve multiple water changes regardless of bio help to quell ammonia?

I think I answered most of your questions above in my first post.

There is no right or wrong about 1 bigger tank or 2 smaller tanks.

BTW - if you use hypo salinity - you would remove your inverts/corals to the breeder tanks - and then use hypo salinity in the big display tank.

The HOB and instant cycle - with a Seachem alert badge for ammonia is the way I would go.

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

It takes that one fish to send everything in the wrong direction
Quarantine is advantageous and eliminated the need to treat 200+ gallons while giving you ability to inspect close up

What would you recommend for those in tight spaces? For those who can’t add a qt tank for coral?

Close inspection on a frag rack in the DT for coral pest/ hitch hikers?

Would you URGE the reefer to try their best to set up their QT tank ? If so, same room coral QT as with the DT ?

 

[Pickle_soup]

What would you recommend for those in tight spaces? For those who can’t add a qt tank for coral?

Close inspection on a frag rack in the DT for coral pest/ hitch hikers?

Would you URGE the reefer to try their best to set up their QT tank ? If so, same room coral QT as with the DT ?

Coral qt doesn't need to be big. I have a 13.6 gal Fluval, and it's more than enough. Maybe you can find enough space in the stand of your current tank?

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

Coral qt doesn't need to be big. I have a 13.6 gal Fluval, and it's more than enough. Maybe you can find enough space in the stand of your current tank?

I don’t have this tank currently set up, but my question is, if I have a my DT and QT tank close by, can parasites transmit from one tank to another via aerosol transmission ?

 

[Pickle_soup]

I don’t have this tank currently set up, but my question is, if I have a my DT and QT tank close by, can parasites transmit from one tank to another via aerosol transmission ?

Technically yes, but what are the odds of that happening? I think it was Humblefish that did a write-up on that. To be honest, imo, if that happens, then I would just laugh and start over.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I don’t have this tank currently set up, but my question is, if I have a my DT and QT tank close by, can parasites transmit from one tank to another via aerosol transmission ?

It is pretty rare, but it does happen. More commonly, diseases are transmitted through contact - your wet hand going from tank to tank for example. Here is an article I put together on "biosecurity":

Biosecurity

A short introduction to aquarium biosecurity

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

It is pretty rare, but it does happen. More commonly, diseases are transmitted through contact - your wet hand going from tank to tank for example. Here is an article I put together on "biosecurity":

Biosecurity

A short introduction to aquarium biosecurity

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

Often with many LFS, was using the same net from tank to tank

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Often with many LFS, was using the same net from tank to tank

I once had a staff person go from tank to tank, dipping their hand in each one to rinse off the food they were feeding (ugh).

Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

What would you recommend for those in tight spaces? For those who can’t add a qt tank for coral?

Close inspection on a frag rack in the DT for coral pest/ hitch hikers?

Would you URGE the reefer to try their best to set up their QT tank ? If so, same room coral QT as with the DT ?

If its coral- Dip, whether it be my choice - CoralRX or even lugols iodine and rinse in a separate container of tank water and inspect during and after dip