To UV or not to UV? Some questions...

[LesPoissons]

Hey guys,
my 4-5 year old reef tank is going through some things and Im trying to get it sorted out (corals bleaching, brown jelly, etc). ICP test says everything is fine, Idk what is going on so Im going through the tank and trying to minimize potential problems, run maintenance on and/or minimize components.
Ive run a UV lamp on it forever bc I like the clarity. It was reccomended I turn it off for an hour after dosing a beneficial bacterial blend (dr tims or nopox or something) and honestly I forgot to turn it back on for a week. Ive since turned it back on but realized Its been well over 2 years since maintenance- I dont know if the brand exists for replacement bulbs so if I want to continue to run UV I probably need to replace the unit which ballpark (looking at BRS) is like $400.
So here are my questions:
Would you buy another UV set up or just leave it off?
Should you run UV with bacterial/carbon dosing?
What wattage do you run on prob ~250g total water vloume?
What brand do you use?
Thanks all.

 

[andrewey]

Have you finished dealing with brown jelly? That would be my very first step before ANYTHING else. I wouldn't even read the replies of this thread until that's been sorted

Provided that's been dealt with, UV is one of those pieces of equipment that some are fans of and some aren't. Likely the answers you'll get align pretty well with whether the writer uses UV or not. I'm not sure UV is where I would start if you're issue was BJD or coral bleaching, but nonetheless, like any piece of equipment, you'll have to figure out if the pros/cons work well for your tank. Some people swear by them and others don't find them necessary. Part of that might be perception, the problem being addressed (algae, water clarity, etc.), or particular setups and individual needs.

You can absolutely use UV with carbon dosing/bacterial dosing. Different people have different protocols for how long their UV/skimmer is off after dosing bacterial products- I would usually advise following the label for the bacterial product you are using.

 

[LesPoissons]

The brown jelly only hit 1 torch coral thankfully, I removed the coral ASAP and did a water change. It’s been about 4 days and no other corals have been affected but 3 corals completely bleached in a tank of maybe 20 corals over the last week or so, 2 Duncan’s have multiple heads that look grayish but it doesnt seem to be progressing, and 2 corals about half bleached but may recover. I cannot figure out what is wrong.

 

[andrewey]

Could you tell us more about your tank, your water parameters, your dosing/maintenance? That might help to figure out why your corals are bleaching. Personally, the UV is unlikely to make much of a difference to this acute event- the decision for or against UV long term can likely wait, but you should probably focus on stemming the bleaching events and I'm sure the community would love to help you out!

 

[LesPoissons]

My tank is 220g, running 4 years or so. MIxed reef with sps, lps, fish, crabs, snails, nems, urchins. Ive dealt with a long green hair algae period followed by a super low nutrient period followed by a dino bloom as nurtients came back up. My tank is typically ph: 8.15, mag 1450, ca430, alk 10. Things have been a s good as possible for a while, but nitrates and phos were creeping up to 50+ for nitrates and .8+ for phos and a couple corals started looking dull and the fish started flashing and scraping. I was already dosing bacteria but it wasnt helping so i added in alternating dr tims, turned off uv. I did an ICP test just to make sure all was on track and everything looked good (maybe 3 weeks ago). Then 1 birdsnest bleached. Then on the 22nd my torch showed up with brown jelly (6 days ago), I removed and did a water change, started nopox bc my nitrates were still high, and turned the uv back on. over the last 6 days more corals have bleached. Maybe the uv has nothing to do with it but it does cause a couple degrees of temp change when I start and stop it but it takes like a day to warm all the water up? Maybe its the nopox? Maybe its the accumulation of the high nitrates and phos but they have been high for over a month- all this bleaching in 6 days seems more acute. Ive had most of these corals 3 years at least and they have survived all the previous nonsense. = (

 

[andrewey]

Couple of thoughts- these are purely my opinions, so I wouldn't take them as gospel by any means. Other SPS owners will hopefully weigh in

I suspect your UV has nothing to do with it. Many SPS tanks have pretty large temperature swings (e.g. MH users) and the 2 degree temperature swing you're describing over the period of a day is pretty normal for many hobbyists.

If you dose nopox too quickly, that can cause bleaching events. If N or P abruptly shift, the mechanism by which corals regulate their delivery to the zooxanthellae can get overwhelmed and lead to an overproduction of zooxanthellae- if this happens quickly, the zooxanthellae can deplete oxygen within the tissue and the coral will expel the zooxanthellae. Therefore, it would be important to understand what your new nitrate and phosphate levels are. 50ppm nitrate and 0.8 phosphate over a long period of time are unlikely to cause bleaching events, but sudden increases or reductions certainly can. Therefore it's possible this was due to nopox, but the same could be said originally- if these levels suddenly shot up (you said over a month? what were the values usually at before that month?) that could similarly cause the bleaching events. However, this still doesn't explain the birdsnest bleaching before the addition of nopox...

I'm also concerned about the flashing/scraping. Have you been QTing all your new fish/inverts/corals? That behavior can be caused by an infection, low O2, extremely high nitrates, ammonia, temperature, etc. However, I'd start with parasites- namely investigating the possibility of ich or flukes. Flukes can be confirmed with a FW dip- sometimes you get lucky and can see outward signs of ich, sometimes you can't depending on the fish. I'd make sure to rule out parasites before anything else (flashing can also be caused by other diseases including velvet, by given the timeframe, I'm thinking slower acting parasites). As in the list above, it doesn't have to be parasites and the coral bleaching in tandem with the fish might point to a single unified issue, but I'd make sure you didn't have two issues on your hands!

Additionally, I'd make sure all your parameters were accurate. I'd first confirm your tank temperature is accurate with a second calibrated thermometer. Similarly, have you calibrated your refractometer recently and ensured the calibration solution is relatively new (or make your own using Randy's DIY instructions)? Both of these steps are quick and easy, but both have caused similar issues in the past that align with some of what you're describing.

Lastly, I'm assuming it's not a heavy metal issue based on your recent ICP testing. Have you changed anything recently with regard to your WC frequency, dosing amounts/frequency or any additives? I also should have asked this from the get go, but when you say everything was stable for awhile, how long is that- a year, a month, etc?

Thanks for reading my ramblings

 

[LesPoissons]

I really appreciate all the information and you taing the time to try and help me sort this out.
OK I agree, ignoring the UV as a major factor in this.

Im pretty sure there is ich in the tank that reappears when the fish get stressed and goes away on its own. I did qt originally years ago but ich still got in and I was past the point of ability to go fallow. I have never had flukes (as far as I know) but I will google it and check for symptoms. Unfortunately unless there is a reef safe medication, I dont have a back up tank for 20-30 fish, or a way to catch them all in a 6 foot tank with 200# of live rock and corals. = /
The tank went through a major gha outbreak 2 years ago and the entirely of last year until like april it was kept at 5 or less nitrates and 0 phos (because I didnt know enough.. still learning lol) but averaged ph 8.15-8.2, mag 1450ish, ca 450ish, alk 10ish for the last 2 years. In April as I let the phos and nitrates increase, I hit a dino outbreak but the other parameters stayed in the same margins as the phos and nitrates rose.

My current parameters checked this am are: 6 days ago pre-water change they were:
ph: 8.15 (american marine monitor) 8.15
alk: 10.64 (hanna) 10.4
Mag: 1410 (Aqua Forest) (didnt check)
Nitrate: 25 (ish) (salifert) 25-50 (ish)
Cal: 424 (hanna) 475
Phos: .03 (hanna) .81

So the phos rose from 0.02 to .81 over about a month from like end of April to end of May and stayed in that high range for an additional month from end of may till now. Then over 6 days (or maybe just 1 or 2 days, idk,- I didnt test immediately following the water change) the phos dropped by a potential 0.78 and the nitrates by potentially 25+. So that would explain the coral bleaching?

However the birds nest bleached before this big swing as did an encrusting montipora. As of now, 5 monitpora are doing fine while 1 is completley bleached and 1 is growing back from bleaching the couple weeks before, 1 of 2 stylos is bleached, 1 acropora is partially bleached, the other piece of the same acro that was fragged that is 1cm away is fine, psammacora bleached, and yellow fiji leather is completely retracted. The hammer, bubbles, mushrroms, some montis, lepto, half the duncans, the brain coral etc all seem fine (knock on wood).

 

[LesPoissons]

(The formatting changed my chart when I posted this. Sorry. So the 1st value is today, the value on the end is 6 days ago.)

 

[andrewey]

No worries- the chart makes sense. I think we found your most likely culprit! Dropping from 0.8 to 0.03 phosphate (or lower due to the accuracy of the hannah tester) would absolutely be enough to bleach your corals! It's also the most likely culprit! I would do three things at this point.

1) Confirm the 0.03 was actually true and not testing error or a rogue value.
2) Discontinue dosing nopox for the time being. If you have any GFO/refugium, I'd discconect those as well.
3) Not do anything. Part of the elevated phosphate gets bound in the rocks. As the water becomes phosphate deficient, part of that phosphate should leach out. Therefore, if you do nothing, your phosphate will slowly rise (in addition to the phosphate from feeding). Right now it was the shock of going from high phosphate to low phosphate that bleached the corals. We're hoping to get back to a higher phosphate level - the ultimate goal if you wanted to bring down your phosphate would be to drop it SLOWLY. Too quickly a change and your corals can bleach.

Unfortunately your corals are likely stressed from the shift in phosphate values. At this point there aren't any quick fixes. You may have some more bleaching events in the coming days. At this point, the goal is stability- it will take quite some time until your corals return back to normal and you have full coloration/polyp extension.

That being said, I'm still a bit dubious about your testing results. Assuming you weren't using lanthum chloride, gfo, suddenly put a refugium online, or performed an incredibly large water change, it would seem odd to drop by almost 0.8ppm phosphate over a few days/1 week without an extremely noticeable reduction in nitrate. Nopox will lower phosphate, but not as quickly as nitrate, so I'm a bit stumped by your testing results.

As far as the possible ich is concerned, given your inability to catch/QT the fish, I'm going to link an article from Humblefish about how to approach the situation. He's(or she?) are one of the better sources on marine ailments in the hobby. They moved off Reef2Reef to their own forum, so in addition to the linked article, you can find some of the best information about ich on their forum.

As a spoiler, while I didn't think your UV sterilizer would help with your coral bleaching situation, it is recommended to help with your ich management situation

Ich eradication vs. Ich management

Ich eradication vs. Ich management The purpose of this article is to discuss the pros & cons of ich eradication and ich management, and present the best methods for implementing each. Ich eradication - Simply put, this method means doing everything possible to keep ich out of your tank. That...

humble.fish