Too Much NO3/PO3 reduction

VR28man

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
May 16, 2017
Messages
1,178
Reaction score
1,052
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Hey all,

I've been trying to get my parameters under control, and I wonder if I've gone too far. Key point is buried below.

BASELINE:
For the past few months, I've had a cyano problem. (29 gal AGA tank, unfortunately about a 3-4" sandbed, mainly for my jawfish. 6 months old. Previously overfed. No sump; macroalgae, Caluerpa sertulariodes and prolifera, in display grew OK for a while but lighting cut downs after the cyano boom has not been good for macroalgae). This was on top of a persistent NO3 equilibrium of 20-25 and PO3 of around 0.3, despite water changes.

(calcium has been OK, in the 400ppm range, when I measured it. Alkalinity is quickly eaten up after water changes, going as low once as 140ish, which I previously attributed to the rise in NO3. Tank is about 6 months old, cycled with Dr. Tims and started adding fish once I got diatoms; now it has 2 pearly jawfish, 1 firefish, 2 growing green implosion/palythoa mutuki + one more polyp that appeared two weeks ago; an apparently growing war coral/favites pentagona on the sandbed, a reasonably growing pocillopora damicornis. Nitrification done by a, complete, marinepure block which I know is overkill but which I don't want to mess with until the system is stable. Marinepure block is loaded with small feather dusters and a growing number of encrusting purple sponges. Alk and PO3 measurements done by Hanna colorometer - this is why I'm recording alk in PPM - remainder by Salifert)

CHANGES:
I added Seachem matrix about a month ago, as well as a hob limewood airstone skimmer. The latter collects a lot of liquid. I put about 1/4 Seachem's recommended dose of purigen and phosguard about 2 weeks ago (yes I know I'm potentially adding more dissolved Al). I did two water changes in this time (60%, Omega salt two weeks ago, and 20%, last week, using RSCP). I've also been vaccuming the sandbed; I wish I could do it every day but in the end I do it maybe 2x/week.

In that time, things have gone down.

For the past 10 days or so, NO3 has dropped, consistently, down to 4-5. Since Purigen and Phosguard were added, PO3 has dropped down to about 0.18 last week and 0.10, consistently, starting Wednesday.

(Alk is still being consumed, and I dose baking soda, but its consumption rate is variable enough I'm not comfortable saying I've reached an equilibrium yet. I will go down to dosing quarter teaspoons of baking soda, every few days, with measurements to be sure it's not going bonkers. My objective number is ~165. It was 150 Wednesday, 160 Friday afternoon and 187 as of today/Saturday AM after the 0.5 tsp I added Friday night, thinking based on previous measurements it would bring alk from 160 to 170ish. I will continue to monitor alkalinity with a bias against dosing, since I'm not sure what created such large swings)

I have also started (white) vinegar dosing, 2 caps a day now.

CURRENT SITUATION:
NO3 has declined notably over the month, from ~20 to ~4-5, a number which has been consistent over the past week, using Seachem Matrix. PO3 has dropped even more dramatically, from 0.30 to 0.10, a number that has only been consistent for the past 2 days (again, I have done no water changes in a week, and the post-water change PO3 was higher). Cyano is still growing; I just dug every large mat i could find, brushed my rocks and the marinepure off again, and sucked out a good amount (but nowhere near abundant as before) detrirus. Given the water parameters, I expect the cyano to grow slower this week.

ANYWAY, TO THE KEY POINT:
I feel that this is too much change, too quickly, in NO3 and PO3. I certainly don't want to do anything more to the tank right now. I will also go on a business trip next week and won't be able to do much with the tank in the next 3 weeks.

Is this amount of change possibly negative, in that now something's out of whack and parameters might go too low in the next 3 weeks, or possibly setting me up for something unexpected in those three weeks? I know such a change is bad for the corals, but now I'm at roughly the numbers I want for the corals (yes?).

I'm trying to decide whether to:
  1. do another detritus vacuuming, remove cyano, and a 20% water change Wednesday, and leave it be until I come home
  2. nuke it with Chemiclean tommorrow and then do a water change during the week (I have not used chemiclean yet),
  3. suck up some more detritus, remove cano, but not so aggressively as 1 just let it be until I come home. ( I am leaning towards this. And not just because of laziness..... )

Thoughts?




Digression: this my pre-reef tank; a system that I set up quickly to get some sort of experience, while the actual sumped reef tank's arrival has been pushed back again and again, probably won't come until the summer, since I'm balancing other things in life right now. It's my first fish tank in decades. Nevertheless, I will do things very differently, and more conventionally, next time)
 
Last edited:
There is still plenty of N and P for pests like cyano, and if they have enough nutrients of all sorts and a good place to grow, they will, unless something eats them or removes them.

I'm not certain of the best way to tip the balance toward organisms that we prefer to out-compete the cyano and grow where the cyano currently is.

You proposed plan sounds good.

The fundamental ways to remove pests are:

1. Starve them of something they need. This could be light, a place to grow, N, P, a trace element (e.g., iron, etc.), silicate (for diatoms), etc.
2. Remove something that may help them grow faster, such as possible organics for cyano.
3. Remove the pest directly, either by something eating them or you manually removing them.
4. Add organisms that compete with the pests, or add ingredients that make the competitors thrive (bacteria, foods they eat, etc)
5. Hit it with a relatively specific treatment (antibiotics for cyano; essentially is a way of doing 3)
6. Hit it with a nonspecific treatment (say, hydrogen peroxide)

I really do not know what is currently the best path for you to take, and some have risks.

Method 1, for example, can risk dinos, which might be an even worse problem than you have now.

The chemiclean antibiotic approach is a fine way when desperate about cyano. Many folks (myself included) have used it successfully).
 
Thank you, Randy. Yeah, I'm not so keen on doing more to starve them out, because it's too much of a change for the tank in too much of a time and I'm worried about other (unknown) effects that this change might bring. My #3 will probably be the default, with the caveat that I need to add two gallons of water anyway.

I will vacuum a bit more, but otherwise I will let it ride until I get back. Hopefully, VR28woman won't dump 15 sinking omega one pellets into thank again, like last time. :) :) (seriously, I will tell her to just put a pinch of dry food into the water, just Tues and Fri).

I've been thinking of adding a small HOB fuge for a while ($30ish on amazon, in the price range for this temporary tank), and I think I very well may this time, even though it's not as big as I would like it to be.
 
Update: (no response needed. Randy, thanks again for your help. Followers, I hope it's been a bit educational)

Geting ready to go, topped up the water and did some observation. (probably the last time I'll have to make serious observations before I go).

Cyano is growing again, but nowhere near as thick or profusely as when I started this (e.g. when I got back from my last business trip about a month ago). Maybe 1/5 the previous growth.

However, in some places where there was red cyano, there is now a brown thing that's growing, albeit not so badly. I hope that's diatoms, or somesuch (kind of doubt it because none of the snails are eating it), rather than dinos...............

Purple coralline has started to grow noticably on the glass, for the first time, in about the last week. I've suspected I've had green coralline down by the sandbed (algae that requires a credit card to scrape off) but I'm not sure what it is.

Parameters are in line with before. I measured Ca, it's around 460 (salifert), and alkalinity seems to be consumed by about 5ppm (!) a day (0.3 dkh, 0.1meq/L)

Anyway, I’ve decided to not do a water change, since I want things to be relatively stable.

I'll have to leave it as is. I'm going to scrape off cyano (again, decent amount of growth but nowhere near as bad as before) off of my frag plugs later tonight. And then, we'll see how it is when I get back.

I hope VR28woman will be able to keep up with vinegar (2 caps daily am) and alk (0.5tsp 2X a week) while I'm gone.......
 
Last edited:
Just a follow on (Randy, thanks again. I also again hope this has been useful for lurkers).

VR28woman claimed to have kept up the vinegar dosing, and fed lightly once a day. I didn't in the end give her instructions for baking soda dosing.

Anyway, I came back and cyano growth was decent, but not as bad as before. Purple coralline algae growth continues, and injured areas of a pocillopora damicornis colony are "healed" (i.e. completely white gaps from two weeks agi where braches came off, have been ~75% overgrown with new polyps).

Nitrates were, surprisingly, 1-2ppm, and Phosphates were less than 0.5 and more than 0.015 (with the Salifert kit, in the ULR double method. color was less than the 1 color but probably more than 0.03. Honestly, it's hard to use this and I may get the Hanna ULR). Alkalinity was ~165, which surprised me since it meant that my tank is no longer losing alkalinity, at least as of last weekend.

I find these numbers quite a deviation from before, and don't know how to explain them (save for the phosguard/purigen/matrix and skimmer working. And the cyano taking in the excess nutrients).

I will double check all this weekly. When I get time I will scrape off cyano off the rocks, dig it out of the sandbed, and do another detritus vacuuming (and possibly replace some water). And then, if it comes back, I'll be comfortable with nuking it with chemiclean (And then definitely replace some water.....).
 
Last edited:

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
Back
Top