Total water less than I expected

[Trever]

Made my first salt water and filled my tank today, it came out to 37 gallons that I added. It may yet turn into 38 gallons (when the water clears and I turn on the pump, may add more).

I figured I'd get 42 gallons.

33 display + 15 sump

That comes to 48 gallons but I calculated 42 based on what the real water levels in those tanks would be, and subtracting a bit for rock displacement.

So ~42 gallons expected versus 37-38 gallons actual.

I'm surprised at how much the sand and rock work displaced (there's also pump, sump, heater, but negligible I assume on those).

It's all good, but my question is:

When people say a 40 gallon breeder is a good minimum size for water parameter stability, etc., are they talking tank size numbers or actual water?

I don't imagine that if 40 gallons is the magic minimum number, my 37 is too far off to care about, but I'm just curious what experienced reefers would say....

Thanks

P.S. I used CaribSea live sand, so that's why the water is presently cloudy and clearing, in case someone is thrown by "when the water clears"...

 

[Biglew11]

the 40 gallon breeder is just a tank size that a lot of people like. it's not based on any actual tank volume. the reason they say go bigger is only that more water volume is more stable for beginners, it takes longer for changes to happen. with less water volume changes happen faster.
also tank volume is typically calculated from the outside dimensions of the tank. length x width x hight / 231. the thickness of glass means less inside area = less than advertised volume before you even add anything.

 

[45bravo]

I've kept tanks as small as 2.5 gallons in the past that look great, even 5's and 10's packed full of corals and even clams.

I'd say most people say the 40 breeder is a good size tank is because of the dimensions not the actual water volume. Its not so big that it takes up a ton of space, particularly length wise, it's not to tall so even with T5s you don't need tons of bulbs to grow any kind of coral you want, and the width is particularly favorable to aquascape because it gives you ample depth in order to not create dead zones in the back of the tank, you can get pretty creative and you can demonstrate depth in the layout. I'd select the 40 breeder over the 55 any day.

Your water is just cloudy from the live sand, it will clear up in a day or so. One of the brands, I cant remember which one, has a packet inside to help with the cloudy water, but if you threw it away it doesn't matter it will still clear up.

 

[WVNed]

More internet lore I have always heard but don't know is true.
Tank volumes are calculated from the external dimensions of the tank and not what they actually hold.
My custom tank sold as a 280 doesn't hold anywhere near that much. It's more like 239 gallons.

 

[Biglew11]

More internet lore I have always heard but don't know is true.
Tank volumes are calculated from the external dimensions of the tank and not what they actually hold.
My custom tank sold as a 280 doesn't hold anywhere near that much. It's more like 239 gallons.

also tank volume is typically calculated from the outside dimensions of the tank. length x width x hight / 231. the thickness of glass means less inside area = less than advertised volume before you even add anything.

this is easy to figure out by manufacturers published tank dimensions. the more reputable manufacturers will give you the the both the advertised volume based on outside dimensions and the actual water volume it will hold.

 

[Trever]

@45bravo yep- it's getting clearer. It's on track to take about 24 hours to clear up, though to be really clear I think it will be more like 2 days to look pristine.

I haven't added that packet. Just wasn't feeling it- it seems like they added it to make people feel better because they were complaining- meaning I doubt it's necessary. I haven't seen anything that says "OMG you MUST add that clarifier or else!", so...

The weird thing is there doesn't seem to be received wisdom on how to go thru this live sand settling period? I am a bit shocked by that. I'm not running the pump. Therefore, all the water is just sitting there. I have a clear sump (I manually filled that with salt water first), and a cloudy DT (manually added salt water to that second, after putting in the live sand). I figured circulating water would make things take longer to clear up. Also I've seen posts where people rant about "silicants" destroying their pump- don't run it while the water settles, they exclaim. I don't know about that- it's presumably awfully small and/or chemical stuff in that water if it takes so long to drop out, I'm skeptical it could damage a Varios 2 pump.

But:

Do I turn on the pump rather than have this stagnant water? Do I throw in a filter sock? Should I install my MP10 and run that too? Etc. Nothing I've seen says.

Waiting for it to clear enough then will do the Dr. Tim's. At that point, I figure I'll add the Dr. Tim's to the DT and wait awhile (2 hours?), then turn on the pump and get the power head going. So a "still" period where bacteria can do what they do when the water is still and they are dumped over the rocks and sand, and then the circulating period that goes on forever, and the bacteria can do whatever it is they do when the water is cruising around as it will from this day forward (except for maintenance windows, possibly feeding, whatever- the times when you turn stuff off).

Sockless and skimmerless- as I will be probably until I add the clowns.

 

[45bravo]

@45bravo yep- it's getting clearer. It's on track to take about 24 hours to clear up, though to be really clear I think it will be more like 2 days to look pristine.

I haven't added that packet. Just wasn't feeling it- it seems like they added it to make people feel better because they were complaining- meaning I doubt it's necessary. I haven't seen anything that says "OMG you MUST add that clarifier or else!", so...

The weird thing is there doesn't seem to be received wisdom on how to go thru this live sand settling period? I am a bit shocked by that. I'm not running the pump. Therefore, all the water is just sitting there. I have a clear sump (I manually filled that with salt water first), and a cloudy DT (manually added salt water to that second, after putting in the live sand). I figured circulating water would make things take longer to clear up. Also I've seen posts where people rant about "silicants" destroying their pump- don't run it while the water settles, they exclaim. I don't know about that- it's presumably awfully small and/or chemical stuff in that water if it takes so long to drop out, I'm skeptical it could damage a Varios 2 pump.

But:

Do I turn on the pump rather than have this stagnant water? Do I throw in a filter sock? Should I install my MP10 and run that too? Etc. Nothing I've seen says.

Waiting for it to clear enough then will do the Dr. Tim's. At that point, I figure I'll add the Dr. Tim's to the DT and wait awhile (2 hours?), then turn on the pump and get the power head going. So a "still" period where bacteria can do what they do when the water is still and they are dumped over the rocks and sand, and then the circulating period that goes on forever, and the bacteria can do whatever it is they do when the water is cruising around as it will from this day forward (except for maintenance windows, possibly feeding, whatever- the times when you turn stuff off).

Sockless and skimmerless- as I will be probably until I add the clowns.

It could very well just be a gimmick that they are trying to make people feel better for sure.

Don’t worry about your pump to much, yes anything hard going though your pump could damage it, but think about how small those particles are it’s dust. You have a lot more clearance between the impeller and walls of the pump than the dust. Plus if your socks are in its gonna catch anything larger.

I’d run the tank like normal, it’s gonna filter out a lot of the fine particles in your filter socks, assuming you have them, if you dont you can usually find squares of the filter mat that you can just put in your sump where it will trap whatever it can, you can use the extra later and cut a small square for your glass cleaner on the inside magnet it will make your daily cleaning way faster. Or rubberband it to the end of your scraper. I never used a scraper unless I had to for coralline, just limiting the possibility of scratching the glass.

I think your tank would have been most of the way cleared before the next morning if you would have been running the system.

Go ahead and put your MP10 in its not gonna hurt if anything it will stir up a bit more of the fine particles and get them into the sock or filter mat. You really wont loose much in terms of bacteria, probably not any, the surface area of the sand is what really houses it all. Not to mention this will give you something to look at, it might also help you see what your flow is gonna be like because of the particles in the water.

As soon as you have it cleared up just follow the instructions on the Dr. Tims, but I’m pretty sure you’re right about removing the socks, i know for a fact it tells you to shut off the skimmer, uv, and ozone.

 

[User1]

Made my first salt water and filled my tank today, it came out to 37 gallons that I added. It may yet turn into 38 gallons (when the water clears and I turn on the pump, may add more).

I figured I'd get 42 gallons.

33 display + 15 sump

That comes to 48 gallons but I calculated 42 based on what the real water levels in those tanks would be, and subtracting a bit for rock displacement.

So ~42 gallons expected versus 37-38 gallons actual.

I'm surprised at how much the sand and rock work displaced (there's also pump, sump, heater, but negligible I assume on those).

It's all good, but my question is:

When people say a 40 gallon breeder is a good minimum size for water parameter stability, etc., are they talking tank size numbers or actual water?

I don't imagine that if 40 gallons is the magic minimum number, my 37 is too far off to care about, but I'm just curious what experienced reefers would say....

Thanks

P.S. I used CaribSea live sand, so that's why the water is presently cloudy and clearing, in case someone is thrown by "when the water clears"...

I'm not sure I understand the question. Having said that tank size != actual water volume. Glass or acrylic thickness, measurements, and other things come into play. Dosing this is actually important because it is based on a value of water volume. You need to calculate it by tank size, amount of rock estimate in pounds, substrate if used again in pounds, sump size, water volume, and so on. There are a couple calculators that ask these questions so you can get a bit more accurate of your actual water volume to set the right dosing number to start with.

On the other hand if you are talking about water volume for success or a better chance to success then the more is better. Why? Simple because it is more and less room for mistakes. If I planned my tank better I would have had an equal size sump or series of sumps to my display just for the extra water and places to stash rocks for biological surface area.

I'm all about the bacteria the more I learn in this hobby.

 

[Trever]

Dosing this is actually important because it is based on a value of water volume.

That's partly why I made sure to keep track of how much water I was adding. I made my salt water in buckets and brutes (42 gallons total I made, measuring everything carefully), then gallon by gallon, I added the water I made to my DT and sump. (I carried 4 gallons at a time in 5 gallon buckets from the basement, keeping track of gallons I was adding to my system, so I know exactly how much water actually went in there. It was fun for the first two trips from the basement, not so much after that- but water changes and such will almost always be 4 gallons or less, whew!)

I was simply surprised that everything filled up at 37 gallons. Remember that based on my original envelope calculations, I made 42 gallons and wondered if I'd need a little more, because I figured I'd need at least 42 gallons. Nope. Was less. 4-5 gallons less! That simply surprised me, but it is what it is, there's no doubt about how much total water is in my system. It's 37 gallons.

My question was just whether that means I have below the fabled minimum to have relatively stable water, or whether I have a perfectly fine system, having 37 gallons of water.

As my original post suggests, this is probably a silly OCD question. But... one sees an awful lot about where the dividing line is between nano and mid size, what's the minimum for a beginner (below which water parameter management is much touchier, supposedly- and it makes sense that it would indeed be trickier), etc.. So I thought I'd post and see what folks say, and part of that is understanding the numbers people throw around. We all know a tank sold as 33 gallons does not mean you will have 33 gallons of water in it- it will be less. So what does that imply? When folks say: "It's best if beginners get at least a 40 gallon breeder", what are they saying? To me it sounds like whatever it is they are saying, it means 37 gallons is right on the money for a minimum size.

P.S. Sorry but I type very fast, which partly means I compose quickly but then have a nasty habit of making a lot of edits afterwards, so folks end up responding to something that was subsequently reworded. My bad.

 

[User1]

That's partly why I made sure to keep track of how much water I was adding. I made my salt water in buckets and brutes (42 gallons total I made, measuring everything carefully), then gallon by gallon, I added the water I made to my DT and sump. (I carried 4 gallons at a time in 5 gallon buckets from the basement, keeping track of gallons I was adding to my system, so I know exactly how much water actually went in there. It was fun for the first two trips from the basement, not so much after that- but water changes and such will almost always be 4 gallons or less, whew!)

I was simply surprised that everything filled up at 37 gallons. Remember that based on my original envelope calculations, I made 42 gallons and wondered if I'd need a little more, because I figured I'd need at least 42 gallons. Nope. Was less. 4-5 gallons less! That simply surprised me, but it is what it is, there's no doubt about how much total water is in my system. It's 37 gallons.

My question was just whether that means I have below the fabled minimum to have relatively stable water, or whether I have a perfectly fine system, having 37 gallons of water.

Ah, got it. That was a lot of work

A lot of people will say the more water the more stable and there is probably truth to that. Then again it can also be little things like auto top off, salinity, and day to day maintenance that will keep any size stable. As I noted I wish I could have more under the display via a larger sump. I do think it would help but I did not design it properly to make that happen. I probably still can by changing sump designs or going with maybe a stock tank via rubbermaid but maybe I'll do this when I plan the next tank change.

Honestly I think you will be fine. I ran a 40 breeder for about 6 years. They are a great size tank that allows total water volume, reasonable size fish, good aquascape possibilities, and later reuse should you upgrade. It can later serve as a QT tank, isolation tank, sump, or emergency tank.

 

[Trever]

Then again it can also be little things like auto top off, salinity, and day to day maintenance that will keep any size stable.

I hear that. I need to get an ATO going at some point no doubt. For now, the tank is in my office and I work from home, so... going downstairs to get RODI water provides me with ergo breaks! But we will go out of town, etc. And if an ATO dribbles in water 24 times a day, even being here, I don't take THAT many ergo breaks...