Toxin in tank, corals dying, fish dead

[Staghorn]

I’m guessing if you submerged the waterpik it’s a non corded , rechargeable? waterproof version? If so have you noticed any Battery leakage possibly lithium?

 

[javisaman]

I'll read through the thread. I'm not quite sure I have the diagnosis right of dinos either. The best I could do was with a hobby-grade microscope at 400x indicating something like dinoflagellate ostreopsis. It mentioned in my original thread it could be the splashless bleach I used for my filter socks. It could even be where I got my rocks from (a giant tub in a hobbyist's backyard that had been from a tank 8 years old). Who knows if the rocks were exposed to things in the air (acid rain, pesticides, etc) that only seem to show up now and not after months of cleaning and curing. It could be the marine pure putting in dust into the aquarium and my pumps not sufficiently keeping it suspended to be filtered out. There are a lot of hypotheses but I haven't figured it out yet.

 

[javisaman]

I’m guessing if you submerged the waterpik it’s a non corded , rechargeable? waterproof version? If so have you noticed any Battery leakage possibly lithium?

Yes it's the handheld version with ipx7 waterflosser:

The idea came from another hobbyist on this forum. No battery leakage. It still works fine. If there was any short in the batteries Lithium-ion tends to have an expansion/explode characteristic. I can recreate the same sort of irritant in the water column using a turkey baster/tooth brush.

 

[javisaman]

Id call those fish mighty prepped, that's ten times the avg prep


wanted to show you something, knowing your updates. for musings and for similarities


can you ignore the eight pages of flame here as we vied for causatives but check out his presentation reason, same as yours

all he did was cast a handful of old sand once, into his new tank, doing fine just before, and all his fish died


fine before handful old sand

all dead after. simple as that

what you are cleaning out of live rock is indeed found compacted in layers in old tank sand, no?

Upgrade disaster

Recently had a huge leak in our 90 gal reef which forced us to upgrade sooner than expected . The upgrade being a 230 gal with a 48 gal sump . Mistake #1 I added some of the old sand assuming it would be beneficial to have a little bacteria .. I was wrong . Nuked the whole tank killing all fish...

www.reef2reef.com

your assessment seems very linked to that loss as well. good call

even though these losses are devastating the patterns alone help the hobby, in prevention. in our whole sand rinse/replacement thread the #1 rule above all is cast about no waste. your assessment sounds spot on. for eight pages the refs simply would not have it: cannot be the casted sand.


but we think varying states of bacterial rot can matter, can irritate and kill.

*they did sway me originally from thinking it was nh3 raw ammonia though. the little he could transmit in that handful would be quickly eaten up per my own prior proofing.

has to be something more concentrated in the detritus than basic ammonia. your thread is really good.

I should also mention that I tested for ammonia after I noticed the first fish dead (within 3 hours of the waterchange), there was no ammonia using my Salifert test.

 

[javisaman]

Today I installed my lifegard promax amalgam 55w sterilizer. I'm using an ecotech vectra s2 pump to drive it and I have it running as a separate closed-loop from my display tank (i.e. not going through sump at all). When started within 2 hours all of the coral closed up a bit. I thought that was a result of the extra flow/maybe clarity. I l left it running for most of the day. I saw that the corals completely closed after about 7 hrs and the clownfish was freaking out. It was darting around and its fins were kind of pinched. The anthias seem fine. I turned off both the pump and the uv light for tonight until I can figure out what's going on.

I did test for stray voltage. But I realized I've been doing it wrong for all this time. I was using DC instead of AC to measure. My multimeter only supports 200V or 600V AC measurements. Nonetheless with the UV and pump on my tank's stray voltage was measured at 0.1V, but I think this is inaccurate. I've ordered another multimeter, which should be more precise to see what is going on. Any other ideas?

 

[That1guy07]

Hi All,

Sorry for a second thread. I've been posting regularly to my other thread about struggles with what I suspect are dinoflagelletes here. Since the beginning of that post I've lost all of my SPS, many of my LPS and zoas. After a disaster last night, I thought I should post a more recent thread.

I've tried numerous things (not at the same time):

1. Small water changes
2. Large water changes with siphoning out as much as possible
3. No water changes. Measuring phosphate and nitrate every day and dosing Microbacter7 (daily) and/or Dr.Tim's Refresh (weekly)

Yesterday after a couple of weeks with the third one I thought I would try and do a large waterchange since hair algae had taken over. This was approximately 40% (I did the math wrong in my original thread). I made sure that the salinity (1.026) and temp were exactly the same betwwen the tank and the brute trashcan (I use this from the beginning to hold RO/DI). I even tested the salinity and temp of the tank after doing the water change.

Parameters so far:
Alk 7.0 (Hanna)
Phosphate 0.06 (Hanna)
Nitrate 4ppm to 8ppm (Red Sea Pro)
Salinity 1.026 (Milwaukee and Refractometer, both calibrated)
Ammonia 0 (Salifert)

My corals do not look better or worse from the water change. My inverts like cleaner shrimp, hermits, and snails unchanged.
However, 3 of 5 my fish have died overnight. I've had them for over 8 months all have been fully quarantined with copper and prazipro.

I suspect two things might have caused the issue and I'm hoping someone can give me some insight on how to proceed.

1. Part of the procedure for my water change. Use waterproof handheld waterpik to blast the rocks clean of dinos, scrub and pull hair algae. All of this was done with the pumps on and with a water stone. I kept my skimmer, carbon reactor, and filter socks (10u) in the sump. This may have caused a large die-off causing gill damage to fish. However, I would expect there to be ammonia in the tank.
2. There is a contaminant in my RO/DI water. I replaced all filters last month and bought the BRS 5-stage kit for chloramines. I've never registered more than 0TDS from my water. However, is there a chance something like chlorine can still make it? Or some other contaminent?

Pretty heartbroken that this has gone on for months and everything is basically dead. I would like to try again, but I'm not sure if I'm going to be successful.

I am a scientist and am willing to try anything and everything to figure this out, so all suggestions are welcome.

You think there are nutrients in your dead rock? (If you have any) Thats my only experience with hair algae was from my dead rock. As for the RODI water, did your city add something in your water that can bypass the system? Sometimes some cities dose low amounts of mercury into their water. Im pretty sure mercury is an element that can get past an RODI unit. If that's the case then yikes

 

[JamieLyn17]

Any chance you have a candle in the room, spray any air fresheners, stick your hand in the water with lotions on, etc.

 

[Zagreus]

Smart your getting another multimeter. I may have missed this but what are the stats on your system and how old is it. I thought i saw you post your using 8 year old live rock that may have been cured outdoors? Can you clarify that please and if you are using sand or barebottom. Also have you been using any chemicals like red sea nopox or vodka, gfo, Lanthanum Chloride?

 

[javisaman]

You think there are nutrients in your dead rock? (If you have any) Thats my only experience with hair algae was from my dead rock. As for the RODI water, did your city add something in your water that can bypass the system? Sometimes some cities dose low amounts of mercury into their water. Im pretty sure mercury is an element that can get past an RODI unit. If that's the case then yikes

I don't think there are any real contaminants in the RO/DI. I did have a icp test done on the RO/DI water in feb that didn't find anything unusual. I also checked the water supply reports of my municipality and it didn't show anything unusual either.

Any chance you have a candle in the room, spray any air fresheners, stick your hand in the water with lotions on, etc.

No we don't use any candles in the house. We rarely use air fresheners (maybe one or twice a year) and never near the tank. I try my best to wash my arms without soap with tap water before reaching into the tank. I'm also running GAC often.

Smart your getting another multimeter. I may have missed this but what are the stats on your system and how old is it. I thought i saw you post your using 8 year old live rock that may have been cured outdoors? Can you clarify that please and if you are using sand or barebottom. Also have you been using any chemicals like red sea nopox or vodka, gfo, Linthicum Cloride?

The tank is 20 months old. These issues basically started 4 months ago. You can see my thread here:

Months of struggles (high res pictures, sorry long)

Hi All, Hoping you can help me with the current issues I'm having with my tank. The setup: Aquarium: Started 07/2019 75 gallon Aquarium Masters + 20 gallon Trigger Systems sump Reef Angel Controller 70 Lbs dry rock (old from a previous tank, but left in a tub for 2 years) Barebottom with...

www.reef2reef.com

I started the tank with dry rock and barebottom (food-safe starboard). The tank was great for the first year or so. In the past, I've used lanthanum chloride when my phosphate hit 1ppm. That was a long time ago, however. My phosphates now alternate between 0.04 and 0.09 and my nitrates are 2ppm to 8ppm.

I'm almost 100% certain I'm battling some kind of dino flagellates that have basically taken over the entire tank and seem to make the tank somewhat uninhabitable for the corals fish. I managed to kill 3 of the 5 finish in the tank by blowing off all of the rocks and doing a 40% waterchange 2 weeks ago. The parameters of the waterchange were identical in salinity and temperature.

 

[That1guy07]

I don't think there are any real contaminants in the RO/DI. I did have a icp test done on the RO/DI water in feb that didn't find anything unusual. I also checked the water supply reports of my municipality and it didn't show anything unusual either.


No we don't use any candles in the house. We rarely use air fresheners (maybe one or twice a year) and never near the tank. I try my best to wash my arms without soap with tap water before reaching into the tank. I'm also running GAC often.



The tank is 20 months old. These issues basically started 4 months ago. You can see my thread here:

Months of struggles (high res pictures, sorry long)

Hi All, Hoping you can help me with the current issues I'm having with my tank. The setup: Aquarium: Started 07/2019 75 gallon Aquarium Masters + 20 gallon Trigger Systems sump Reef Angel Controller 70 Lbs dry rock (old from a previous tank, but left in a tub for 2 years) Barebottom with...

www.reef2reef.com

I started the tank with dry rock and barebottom (food-safe starboard). The tank was great for the first year or so. In the past, I've used lanthanum chloride when my phosphate hit 1ppm. That was a long time ago, however. My phosphates now alternate between 0.04 and 0.09 and my nitrates are 2ppm to 8ppm.

I'm almost 100% certain I'm battling some kind of dino flagellates that have basically taken over the entire tank and seem to make the tank somewhat uninhabitable for the corals fish. I managed to kill 3 of the 5 finish in the tank by blowing off all of the rocks and doing a 40% waterchange 2 weeks ago. The parameters of the waterchange were identical in salinity and temperature.

Jeez idk then, I'm really tryna think here. But I am sorry this is happening to you. Last year I had a tank crash where my cat somehow opened up my sump cabinet and was able to bite a hole in the collection cup on my protein skimmer. Obviously this then leaked out into the sump which then went into the tank and killed 3/4ths of everything in the tank. It happened in the middle of the night so I didn't find it until the morning. Again I am sorry for your loss.

 

[Cell]

Splashless bleach you say?

 

[zalick]

Splashless bleach you say?

This.

I nuked a tank years ago with splashless bleach used to clean filter socks.

 

[T-J]

Splashless bleach you say?

Good catch.
I think you have a combination of things going on here.
The splashless bleach could play a role.
The Dinos could play a role.
Stray voltage could play a role.
Those would be my big 3 to look at. I can speak to Dinos being killers, as I just finished a 4 month battle with them. First tank in my life that had Dinos so bad. I blame dry rock, but that's another story. Anyway, when I started to win the Dino war, I lost all my SPS frags in the tank. I feel that the die-off and release of toxins is what did it. I was also blowing large sections of rocks to get the Dino material off and into the filter sock. Now I just vacuum it out during my waterchange. Just have a small section of sand left to clean up.

As far as the bleach, I found a brand at Lowe's that is just cheap, straight bleach. I use that to wash my filter socks.

Best of luck to you!

 

[guylaga]

Splashless bleach you say?

This right here is a one of if not THE reason for issues.

Never use splashless bleach as there are is residuals left as opposed to regular bleach.

 

[clifg]

Dinoflagelados en el acuario marino. ¿qué son y cómo combatirlos? - Blog Coral Wonders

Los dinoflagelados, una de los principales amenazas en nuestros acuarios. Descubre lo que son y aprende a controlarlos manteniendo el acuario limpio y seguro.

blog.coralwonders.com

Read this article. I wouldn't be blowing dinos around the tank. That could certainly be killing your fish. No water changes, raising temp to 82, and running only carbon while dosing nitrate & phosphate worked for me.

 

[Zagreus]

@ javisaman​

• First and foremost, thank you for sticking with the hobby, having the discipline to chronicle your negative experience and by so doing challenging the reef keeping community to share its experience and wisdom. This is fundamentally how we all collectively learn and elevate together.
• All I have is my experience that I can share. But I am not a scientist-marine biologist and do not have any real scientific credentials or degrees. So I am sharing opinions based upon my experience and maybe a little scientific fact. So I am not an expert but I am hopeful something here is helpful to you.
• I related to the information you shared, that in my tank before my current one, I was very proactive, responsive and interventional. I also had an algae outbreak and at the same time started losing some SPS, I then did an interventional toothbrushing and scraping in my tank while running Marineland Magnum Water Polisher in the tank at the same time to suck and filter out the algae and polish the water. While not as focused flow as a water pick, the magnum has a 1200 pump that cranks flow. After I proactively and interventionally scrubbed and scraped rock for algae while blasting flow with the magnum to hoover and polish the water. I had a number of ticked off tank inhabitants with some dying. You ever see a double fisted head of a bubble coral slime a tank. Its not pretty. Knowing what I know now, I would not have been as aggressive in my approach.
• Dinoflagellates as I understand are the causers of Red Tide and produce ichthyotoxins, saxitoxin and gonyautoxins. I assume if you aggravate Dinos in a tank such as blowing them off the rock with a water pick and mix them into the water column, that could create some problems for the inhabitants. Especially if you cant suck them out as fast as you are floating them around the tank.
• Great to check stray voltage
• Don’t think you RODI system is the issue based upon ICP an water chemistry
• I will read more about you tank from 1-12 months to see what was going on. I know that on my last tank I ran nopox on a new rock system and when I finally took it of it created a epic bloom in my tank and spike in phosphates etc.
• That’s all I got for you now but will keep thinning and reading. Keep reefing and don’t give up as you will win in the end with an epic tank and you will have helped a lot of people by the experience you shared!

Zag

 

[javisaman]

Splashless bleach you say?

I suspect that might have been the first issue that triggered a lot of the problems I'm having. However, I haven't used bleach anywhere near the tank in months. I've done at least 20X volume of the water changes since then and run GAC. Is there any way to detect if there are any residuals left in the tank?

Today I tried running the pump/UV to see what was irritating the corals/fish. I ran the vectra pump feeding the UV without the UV lamp running. The clownfish still likes to hide and the corals look a little irritated. However, the corals look better than yesterday, and the fish still eat. I think it's an issue with the vibration of the pump (maybe even shaking the base of the display) scaring the fish. However, I won't be turning on the UV lamp until I'm sure there is no voltage leaking.

 

[javisaman]

I tried running the UV sterilizer again. It doesn't make sense that there would be stray current. I have the UV in one GFCI and the ground probe in the other. If there was a stray voltage from the UV then the GFCI would trip, because the outgoing current would be different from the incoming current (to the outlet). The UV sterilizer seems to cause all of the corals to close up. I'm going to remove the corals and put them into a new 10-gallon tank.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to quickly set up the QT for just the corals and maybe the inverts?

 

[javisaman]

Today I measured the stray voltage with my new multimeter. I first tested the outlet and got the 124.1V then I measured the tank to the mV and got 0V with the ground probe removed as well as with the UV sterilizer on.

I'm at a loss on why the corals close up with the sterilizer turned on.

 

[javisaman]

Well, the corals yesterday didn't completely close yesterday when I ran the sterilizer. So I ran it for the duration of the day and night. The fish were eating like normal. Today, when I woke up I saw the corals completely closed (as in dead looking). The clownfish was also listless (pumps pushing it around) and breathing very heavy (5 breaths per second) and the anthias out but refusing food. I immediately turned off the UV and feed pump and measured the ammonia in the tank as potentially 0.15 - 0.5 (hard to read salifert)

Is it possible that the UV killed so much stuff that the tank had a mini cycle? Right now I put a tiny bit of Seachem Prime and added polyfilter to cut the ammonia down. I plan on doing a large water change later today once I make enough water.