Trace Element Sourcing

msderganc · Jan 23, 2015

Hi Randy,

So now I've got these great Triton tests that tell me I'm low in a few areas (Mn, Ni, V, Zn) and I went to buy some of those solutions...$32+ each (!) for only 100ml, not including shipping. I do realize that for some of them, that's probably 10 years worth of supplement, but others it's not.

Could I buy Manganese Gluconate, for example, and create my own stock solutions? Is there any combination (i.e. sulfate) that I should avoid?

Do you know of any good sources for these? I've noticed BulkSupplements has a lot of them.

Thanks,
Matt

d5332 · Jan 23, 2015

Are your corals growing at the expected rate for the species and maintaining their natural color?

If the answer is yes, I would not go crazy trying to dose every single thing the test indicated the tank was low on.

How have others grown coral before this for profit lab conducted test?

msderganc · Jan 23, 2015

d5332 said:
Are your corals growing at the expected rate for the species and maintaining their natural color?

If the answer is yes, I would not go crazy trying to dose every single thing the test indicated the tank was low on.

How have others grown coral before this for profit lab conducted test?

I'm not implying that I have to do this, but I want to do this. I get that you can do it without, but maybe I'll see better growth and color.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Jan 23, 2015

d5332 said:
Are your corals growing at the expected rate for the species and maintaining their natural color?

If the answer is yes, I would not go crazy trying to dose every single thing the test indicated the tank was low on.

How have others grown coral before this for profit lab conducted test?

Lots of people get trace elements from cocktails of many trace elements, not all if which are always needed or desirable.

Others get them from water changes or as impurities in other additives, such as calcium.

But maintaining better control over how much of what goes in sounds like a good experiment to me.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Jan 23, 2015

msderganc said:
Hi Randy,

So now I've got these great Triton tests that tell me I'm low in a few areas (Mn, Ni, V, Zn) and I went to buy some of those solutions...$32+ each (!) for only 100ml, not including shipping. I do realize that for some of them, that's probably 10 years worth of supplement, but others it's not.

Could I buy Manganese Gluconate, for example, and create my own stock solutions? Is there any combination (i.e. sulfate) that I should avoid?

Do you know of any good sources for these? I've noticed BulkSupplements has a lot of them.

Thanks,
Matt

I haven't yet figured out what sources might be useful for us. Manganese comes in different oxidation states and I'm not in a place where I can look into whether a gluconate is suitable or not, but it may be.

Does it give an actual formula to know the oxidation state?

FWIW, it might have a huge temporary impact on ORP as manganese forms may be one of the primary metals that an ORP probes senses, and you would likely be adding just one of two or more possible oxidation states.

d5332 · Jan 23, 2015

Experiment yes but only for those that are not faint of heart and wallet.

i think some may agree that it's this kind of experimenting that leads to tank "crashes" which basically means I screwed up and killed everything.a

For those that enjoy chemistry and a challenge and can withstand the potential financial loss then I am all for it.

It's through research that we make advancements, just need to thread lightly and only dive in if fully committed in patience, money and time.

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Lots of people get trace elements from cocktails of many trace elements, not all if which are always needed or desirable.

Others get them from water changes or as impurities in other additives, such as calcium.

But maintaining better control over how much of what goes in sounds like a good experiment to me.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Jan 23, 2015

How would carefully dosing up to natural levels be a problem?

It sounds far less risky than blind trace element dosing, which I don't generally recommend, but many people do.

d5332 · Jan 23, 2015

I still believe this triton thing has an agenda

Its not a plain test and do what you wish. Its a test to push the worthyness of even more additives imo

msderganc · Jan 23, 2015

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
I haven't yet figured out what sources might be useful for us. Manganese comes in different oxidation states and I'm not in a place where I can look into whether a gluconate is suitable or not, but it may be.

Does it give an actual formula to know the oxidation state?

FWIW, it might have a huge temporary impact on ORP as manganese forms may be one of the primary metals that an ORP probes senses, and you would likely be adding just one of two or more possible oxidation states.

Pure Manganese Gluconate Powder in Bulk | BulkSupplements.com

That's the one I was looking at.

Here are some others

Zinc Oxide: Pure Zinc Oxide Powder in Bulk | BulkSupplements.com
Vanadium: http://www.amazon.com/Vanadium-Nicotinate-Glycinate-Chelate-Albion/dp/B00NAD3RZE/

I'm sure there are more out there, I'm just wondering what (if any) forms of elements I should avoid.

msderganc · Jan 23, 2015

d5332 said:
I still believe this triton thing has an agenda

Its not a plain test and do what you wish. Its a test to push the worthyness of even more additives imo

Well, to answer your statements:

1. Of course they have an agenda: they want to sell the value of the tests, and then sell you the supplements to match. Like any other business, they're trying to make money and, in this case, create a new market. Before them, you would be hard pressed to find an easily accessible, hobby-focused ICP spectrometer.
2. It definitely IS "a plain test and do what you wish". I don't have to buy their supplements if I don't want to.
3. So if the additives pay off and corals grow better or have better coloration, what's the issue? You aren't forced to use it. It's like all of the other advancements in the hobby, but we're starting to get more scientific about it. As Randy alluded to above, trace elements are ALREADY dosed in various forms by pretty much everyone. We've just been relying on subjective (coral appearance/growth rate) tests.

What if the future is actually fewer, more targeted additives? Instead of adding an entire cocktail of trace elements to salts, maybe you buy salt with just the basic macro elements, and then add an appropriate amount of trace elements to the mix during each water change? That way, you would tailor the exact composition of your tank to your specific ecosystem and better replicate the ocean's natural levels. Given the cost of some of these bulk elements, I could spend $10-15 and have a lifetime supply. That manganese gluconate is $11 for 11 grams of manganese. If that works, and I only need 2 micrograms per liter of manganese, that means my ~240g system could be provided ~6053 times the necessary amount in one package. If that's every week, it's 116 years of the supplement.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Jan 24, 2015

I'm still looking into the others, but that manganese looks to be the right form and I'd use it.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Jan 24, 2015

Zinc oxide is probably too insoluble to use. As a dietary supplement it dissolves in stomach acid, but you wouldn't be using it that way.

I don't know what effect the nicotinate part of the vanadium complex might be, but I'd probably look for other options. Vanadium also comes in a bunch of oxidation states, so that may also be important (or not).

msderganc · Jan 24, 2015

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Zinc oxide is probably too insoluble to use. As a dietary supplement it dissolves in stomach acid, but you wouldn't be using it that way.

I don't know what effect the nicotinate part of the vanadium complex might be, but I'd probably look for other options. Vanadium also comes in a bunch of oxidation states, so that may also be important (or not).