Pod_01
Valuable Member
Taking pictures, is part of the fun and the phones make it easy.
At the same time you get better at it and also you can figure out if things are improving, are stagnant or not improving.
Trace elements debate
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At the same time you get better at it and also you can figure out if things are improving, are stagnant or not improving.
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I believe trace elements are important and should at atleast be tested once in a while, depending on bio load a and how many corals you have, I used to do just water changes and started having random dye off. Now my tank is very well stocked with euphyllia and the corals would grow and randomly lose a head or slowly retract into nothing, always fed and since I upped my feeding to see if it would make a difference, it helped slightly, but then I would lose a head again. I then decided to do a water change and send out an icp analysis, turns out I was low in four trace elements, after adding these elements in their respective doses, I noticed an immediate difference after day one, since then everything has flourished. My hypothesis for this is, because I have so many corals the needed trace elements for each coral is getting depleting as most are the same species and uptake the same elements to grow and survive. For example if you have a tank with five different coral species and they all have ample room around them and don't take up that many trace elements, then you might not ever run into this problem. As for me right now, trace elements are key and are needed for corals to survive and flourish. Here's a picture of my euphyllia tank, thanks for reading.
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Hans-Werner
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The essential trace elementes are ... well, just that, essential. If an organism doesn't get its essential trace elements it will die. So, are they important?
Whether the concentration matters so much is a different question, but below and above certain thresholds you will see negative effects first and then lethal effects.
I think it is not 100 % clear whether foods are a net source or a net sink for trace elements or both or maybe it depends.
Foods are not adding only trace elements but of course also all other nutrients including organic carbon. These other nutrients are suitable to increase trace elements consumptions, from the fish feeding on the food, bacteria feeding on the fish excretions to algae growing on the mineral nutrients. Whether in this way more trace elements are added or consumed depends on the ratios of nutrients including trace elements in the food. Again, ratios and balance matters.
If for example a fish dry food has high levels of phosphate from fish meal, high levels of nitrogen from added proteins and high levels of organic carbon/energy by added fish oil and no trace elements added, it may effectively be a sink for trace elements because main nutrients are not balanced by adequate trace nutrient concentrations.
Finally it is the way how scientific investigations on trace elements effects in feeds work.
I am really sorry about this misunderstanding. I said we increased the concentration, which increased alkalinity as well as calcium and other concentrations. Since the discussion was on alkalinity, I only mentioned alkalinity and unfortunately dropped that also the other concentrations were increased.
David Gaskins
Active Member
Not here to shill, just my personal thoughts:
I rarely do water changes and only when I vacuum out the detritus from sump. Water quality: Salinity 1.025, Alk 8.9, Ca 446, Mg 1451, PH 8.38, P04 .08, N03 20. My last month’s ICP results for other measurements were within normal range. Any new seawater added comes from Red Sea Blue bucket.
While at Aquashella, I got into a very thorough conversation with Lou Ekus @tropic Marin concerning this topic.
I explained that I had been using AFR (All For Reef) for my dosing regimen (which does contain trace), and how well my tank and corals had been responding to changes from standard 2-part dosing regimen (did 2-part for past 8 years). I also mentioned that I was still having coloration issues with a pair of my SPS colonies. Two hard (for me) to color up corals included JF Flame and Vivid Rainbow Delight.
I had also mentioned to him that I was also supplementing AFR with Saturated Kalkwasser to raise/stabilize PH (8.38-8.40 daily swing). Lou had mentioned that with the Kalkwasser (slurry) portion of dosing, there was not any trace included, and that I should be supplementing trace for this portion. He gave me a formula to follow (based on Kalk use), and I had set up TM A and K+ (5ml daily) to solidify trace saturation in water. While not overnight (as we often expect with results), over 3 weeks of use I have not only been able to bring out color in both of these corals, but also increased color, PE, and growth with all corals (including LPS torch, hammer, frogspawn, SPS Monti, Acro, and Chalice).
Two more additional observations: In the sump, where I had failed (often) at keeping Chaetomorpha and Halimedia, are now thriving. SPS/Acro Coral mortality, while never a significant issue, has since changeover disappeared as an issue.
In my case, I feel strongly that trace has had a positive effect on tank health.
Sincerely,
David
I rarely do water changes and only when I vacuum out the detritus from sump. Water quality: Salinity 1.025, Alk 8.9, Ca 446, Mg 1451, PH 8.38, P04 .08, N03 20. My last month’s ICP results for other measurements were within normal range. Any new seawater added comes from Red Sea Blue bucket.
While at Aquashella, I got into a very thorough conversation with Lou Ekus @tropic Marin concerning this topic.
I explained that I had been using AFR (All For Reef) for my dosing regimen (which does contain trace), and how well my tank and corals had been responding to changes from standard 2-part dosing regimen (did 2-part for past 8 years). I also mentioned that I was still having coloration issues with a pair of my SPS colonies. Two hard (for me) to color up corals included JF Flame and Vivid Rainbow Delight.
I had also mentioned to him that I was also supplementing AFR with Saturated Kalkwasser to raise/stabilize PH (8.38-8.40 daily swing). Lou had mentioned that with the Kalkwasser (slurry) portion of dosing, there was not any trace included, and that I should be supplementing trace for this portion. He gave me a formula to follow (based on Kalk use), and I had set up TM A and K+ (5ml daily) to solidify trace saturation in water. While not overnight (as we often expect with results), over 3 weeks of use I have not only been able to bring out color in both of these corals, but also increased color, PE, and growth with all corals (including LPS torch, hammer, frogspawn, SPS Monti, Acro, and Chalice).
Two more additional observations: In the sump, where I had failed (often) at keeping Chaetomorpha and Halimedia, are now thriving. SPS/Acro Coral mortality, while never a significant issue, has since changeover disappeared as an issue.
In my case, I feel strongly that trace has had a positive effect on tank health.
Sincerely,
David
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David Gaskins
Active Member
areefer01,
That is correct, with trace A and K+ utilized to make up for what is lacking in added Kalkwasser. I do have some variation in ml of Kalkwasser dosed daily, so to determine the correct dosage I averaged my use over two weeks and continually monitor for any changes (Versa Pump/Mobius used for dosing).
Sincerely,
David
That is correct, with trace A and K+ utilized to make up for what is lacking in added Kalkwasser. I do have some variation in ml of Kalkwasser dosed daily, so to determine the correct dosage I averaged my use over two weeks and continually monitor for any changes (Versa Pump/Mobius used for dosing).
Sincerely,
David
areefer01
2500 Club Member
Thanks for the reply. Wouldn't AFR already have A and K+ components? I know when we made the DIY recipe using the individual components those made up part of it. That is the part that sort of threw me off.
AFR: organic calcium salts, salts of magnesium, strontium and trace elements (barium, boron, bromine, chrome,iron, fluorine, iodine, cobalt, copper, lithium, manganese, molybdenum, nickel, selenium, strontium, vanadium and zinc)
A: bromine, fluorine, iodine, lithium, molybdenum, selenium and vanadium in pure mineral form.
K+: barium, boron, chrome, iron, cobalt, copper, manganese, nickel strontium and zinc in pure mineral form.
Edit: maybe I misunderstood something or the reason why - if so sorry.
Hooz
Valuable Member
AFR replaces the trace elements in proportion to the amount of AFR dosed. Kalk dosing didn't have the traces, so he boosted the traces in AFR to cover the amount of kalk he was using.
If you 100% dose AFR, it has enough trace elements (theoretically). If you dose 50% AFR and 50% Kalk to achieve the same results (for alk and cal) you're only getting boosted trace elements from the 50% AFR, so only half what you would actually need.
Make sense?
Troylee
all about the diy!!!!!
Interesting… I have a full blown sps tank and it’s growing just fine! Soooooo…
David Gaskins
Active Member
Troylee, thanks for chiming in on this! And spot on the reason for additional trace with Kalk added.
Sincerely,
David
areefer01
2500 Club Member
Maybe you should go first before you call them out? Pro tip for bonus points. You can click on their "My Tank Thread" badge and see.
Be nice. We are only on this planet for a short while.
Troylee
all about the diy!!!!!
My sticks disagree! These were all tiny 1” frags a year ago… I had some hiccups but it’s rolling now and growing like crazy… where’s your tank and how do you roll “ACRO GUY”?
Acroguy
Active Member
I would love to but have currently no “display “ only grow out systems. I can post pics about 6-8 inch colonies. So anyway Just looked at the “ my tank thread “ and there are a couple mini colonies nothing I would call “ full blown “ sps. Of course wc are enough to replenish traces in that tank. Lets see that tank in 2-3 years when it should be fully grown in. Well if it makes it to that point in the first place.
Reefering1
2500 Club Member
My sticks disagree! These were all tiny 1” frags a year ago… I had some hiccups but it’s rolling now and growing like crazy… where’s your tank and how do you roll “ACRO GUY”?
Acroguy
Active Member
My sticks disagree! These were all tiny 1” frags a year ago… I had some hiccups but it’s rolling now and growing like crazy… where’s your tank and how do you roll “ACRO GUY”?
I dont have a “ display tank “ at the moment just a 600 gallon grow out system. Will post some “bigger” colonies.My sticks disagree! These were all tiny 1” frags a year ago… I had some hiccups but it’s rolling now and growing like crazy… where’s your tank and how do you roll “ACRO GUY”?
As for your tank / corals, nice setup but your sps are still considered small. When the tank grows in and you will have “ full blown “ big colonies things will change and you will see depleting traces/ effects on corals ( if you wont test/dose).
