TRACE ELEMENTS

[bif24701]

I miss spoke my intention and I assumed Balling was to replace consumed elements, but I see the point you are making.

 

[Luno]

I possibly should have made this as a poll, may have been easier. But curious to hear more feedback from people that have been dosing trace elements for a while and their thoughts on it

 

[anthonys51]

I think dosing trace elements are like taking vitamins. Taking the right amount can’t hurt but how much it actually helps is debatable. Plenty of healthy people take them and plenty of healthy people don’t take it. Same thing with dosing trace elements

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I possibly should have made this as a poll, may have been easier. But curious to hear more feedback from people that have been dosing trace elements for a while and their thoughts on it

There are unquestionably some trace elements that are useful for some people. Iron, for example.

I think most people who are not doing extensive ICP testing are probably best served by trial and error dosing of a trace element mixture and see if it benefits your tank. Don't assume it does, but look critically to assess.

 

[RussiReef]

IMO if you are doing regular water changes , no need to add any trace elements.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

IMO if you are doing regular water changes , no need to add any trace elements.

While that may be correct in some cases, quite a few people either find benefits to dosing trace elements, or they can measure and see that the water changes are not keeping up.

In my case, with 1% daily water changes, both were true.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

What's good? Seachem Plus ? Complete? Trace?

 

[bif24701]

What's good? Seachem Plus ? Complete? Trace?

Like Randy said, try some and observe your system. When I try something new I want to make sure that I don’t change anything else and that everything else is stable so that if I do seem something I like it’s more likely to be what I changed.

 

[HB AL]

Been dosing weekly, trace elements for as long as I can remember, my current tank inhabitants don't seem to complain much. I do a 15g water change every couple months.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

what product do you use?

 

[Hans-Werner]

I dose trace elements daily with calcium and alkalinity. I only had bad experiences (repeatedly) dosing no trace elements. I look at the corals and if the trace elements additions improve polyp opening and growth of corals it is good I guess.

The Balling method itself does not include trace elements additions except the trace elements to balance the sodium and chloride added with the calcium and bicarbonate. But I have also developed a trace elements formula calculated from the trace elements in the skeletons of corals and coralline algae. I frequently got the reply that it does not include the trace elements of the soft tissue. How much of the total dry mass of a scleractinian is soft tissue, 0.1 % or less? Meanwhile I have data about the trace elements of the soft tissue also and the proportion of trace elements is higher in the soft tissue. So I guess it is better to replace the trace elements precipitated in the skeleton than adding no trace elements at all.

Besides the trace elements precipitated with or as carbonates iodine is incorporated into the skeletons of sponges and gorgonians. This and maybe other processes seem to deplete iodine at a high rate, so iodine, like some trace metals, cannot be replaced adequately by water changes allone. The rate given for example by Wilkens or Delbeek and Sprung seems realistic to me and would remove the 60 ppb of iodine of natural seawater (and synthetic seawater prepared with salt mixes) in just a few days.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

I dose trace elements daily with calcium and alkalinity. I only had bad experiences (repeatedly) dosing no trace elements. I look at the corals and if the trace elements additions improve polyp opening and growth of corals it is good I guess.

The Balling method itself does not include trace elements additions except the trace elements to balance the sodium and chloride added with the calcium and bicarbonate. But I have also developed a trace elements formula calculated from the trace elements in the skeletons of corals and coralline algae. I frequently got the reply that it does not include the trace elements of the soft tissue. How much of the total dry mass of a scleractinian is soft tissue, 0.1 % or less? Meanwhile I have data about the trace elements of the soft tissue also and the proportion of trace elements is higher in the soft tissue. So I guess it is better to replace the trace elements precipitated in the skeleton than adding no trace elements at all.

Besides the trace elements precipitated with or as carbonates iodine is incorporated into the skeletons of sponges and gorgonians. This and maybe other processes seem to deplete iodine at a high rate, so iodine, like some trace metals, cannot be replaced adequately by water changes allone. The rate given for example by Wilkens or Delbeek and Sprung seems realistic to me and would remove the 60 ppb of iodine of natural seawater (and synthetic seawater prepared with salt mixes) in just a few days.

what product do you use?

 

[bif24701]

Here's the Balling continuation of that discussion in the previous post:

Here's Hans Werner's and Lou Ekus's exact comments:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a...rin-balling-system.318541/page-2#post-3981248

"Our Tropic Marin Balling System is really completely balanced and results in calcium, bicarbonate (calcium carbonate + CO2 for coral growth) and complete Pro-Reef sea salt."

and

"The Balling Method published in 1994 just as the Tropic Marin Balling Method only adds calcium, carbonate and bicarbonate and in final outcome a little complete sea salt consisting of all the 79 elements mentioned. It does not contain additional magnesium or trace elements for growth of corals or coralline algae. Magnesium and trace elements consumption by different organisms is different, depending also from the calcium carbonate modification (high magnesium calcite or aragonite) formed by the organisms. A trace element recipe adding some of the essential trace elements in a certain ratio to calcium was first published in the following two years. Magnesium can be tested for and additional magnesium can be added separately."

and

"On the homepage you can find more details:
Concentration of solution:
Calcium chloride dihydrate (part A): 20.000 mg/l (ppm) Ca
Sodium carbonate/sodium bicarbonate (part B): 2800° dKH/l
Sodium chloride free sea salt (part C): 3350 mg/l Mg; 980 mg/l K"


That first statement is EXACTLY what I was demonstrating for a two part, and he clearly says Balling is not, by itself, a trace element supplement. It is the listed ingredients, plus a little bit of balanced salt missing the sodium and chloride.

Thank you, it seems there is no end to what I can learn from you.

 

[Hans-Werner]

As you can see in the link I made the trace elements solutions myself. Since I am doing R&D at Tropic Marin now I improved the formula in the link and now it is Tropic Marin K+ and A- Elements.

 

[bif24701]

I dose trace elements daily with calcium and alkalinity. I only had bad experiences (repeatedly) dosing no trace elements. I look at the corals and if the trace elements additions improve polyp opening and growth of corals it is good I guess.

The Balling method itself does not include trace elements additions except the trace elements to balance the sodium and chloride added with the calcium and bicarbonate. But I have also developed a trace elements formula calculated from the trace elements in the skeletons of corals and coralline algae. I frequently got the reply that it does not include the trace elements of the soft tissue. How much of the total dry mass of a scleractinian is soft tissue, 0.1 % or less? Meanwhile I have data about the trace elements of the soft tissue also and the proportion of trace elements is higher in the soft tissue. So I guess it is better to replace the trace elements precipitated in the skeleton than adding no trace elements at all.

Besides the trace elements precipitated with or as carbonates iodine is incorporated into the skeletons of sponges and gorgonians. This and maybe other processes seem to deplete iodine at a high rate, so iodine, like some trace metals, cannot be replaced adequately by water changes allone. The rate given for example by Wilkens or Delbeek and Sprung seems realistic to me and would remove the 60 ppb of iodine of natural seawater (and synthetic seawater prepared with salt mixes) in just a few days.

I have looked into the A+ and K+ from TM and would like to hear your thoughts.

 

[bif24701]

As you can see in the link I made the trace elements solutions myself. Since I am doing R&D at Tropic Marin now I improved the formula in the link and now it is Tropic Marin K+ and A- Elements.

I want to give these a try, they are a little more difficult to get here in the state and everything TM costs more. With all the great things that are said of TM I don’t really understand why it isn’t more popular here, maybe it is the cost alone.

 

[laverda]

Just saying trace elements is pretty vague. I think we need to be more specific as far as the elements dosed to have a meaningful discussion about it.
I have not done any significant water changes in 2 years on my 325 gallon system, so dosing is critical. By significant I mean more then 5 gallons a month. I typically remove a few gallons to adjust my salinity down monthly. I also occasionally do a 5 gallon water change to my qt system to aclamate the fish there before moving them to my display.
I dose ALK, Ca, Magnesium, vinegar, iron, potassium, strontium, iodine, and boron if I remember correctly. I try to test for all of these monthly except boron as I have not found a test kit in the US yet. I also add some bottled “trace elements” in small amounts on occasion. This method known as the DSR method has been working very well for me so far. In the past I never could do enough water changes to really keep everything happy.
I know vinegar is not considered an element per say, but I dose it and iron for nitrate and phosphate control along with my ATS. I just wish there were better reliable dosing pumps available at reasonable prices.

 

[Stigigemla]

Salifert has a Boron test.

 

[Hans-Werner]

The trace elements in a biological sense are only the essential trace elements which are iron, manganese, copper, zinc, chromium, cobalt, nickel, vanadium, molybdenum, selenium, boron, iodine and fluorine. Strontium and barium are incorporated into the skeletons but may not be essential. A few other elements may be essential for specific organisms like arsenic for some kind of diatoms and tungsten for bacteria and maybe other organisms.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

thank you!