Transporting Fish

[Luna]

I just needed some advise on how and if it's ok. So if I buy a fish from my lfs before I go to work and put it in my lunch box and keep it in my locker will it be ok till I go home bout 11 hrs later?

 

[tyler1503]

It should be fine as long as the temperature doesn't drop. A foam box would be best though

 

[Luna]

So if I put foam in a thermal cooler then it will be fine?

 

[eatbreakfast]

They are often in transport longer than that when being shipped, so should be fine.

 

[Mr_Banana_Pants]

Only thing I would be concerned with is make sure you open the bag to allow oxygen in. When they ship fish overnight they usually fill the bag with oxygen instead of air to make sure that the fish do not suffocate.

 

[NYAquatic]

Most stores just use room air to fill bag.
Fish likely not ok
if they pack with oxygen, will be fine.

 

[eatbreakfast]

Only thing I would be concerned with is make sure you open the bag to allow oxygen in. When they ship fish overnight they usually fill the bag with oxygen instead of air to make sure that the fish do not suffocate.

DO NOT OPEN THE BAGS! There is nothing in the bags to convert ammonia. In a sealed bag the exhaled CO2 cannot escape, this in turn lowers the ph, which prevents the ammonia from becoming toxic. If the bag is opened, the CO2 escapes and the ammonia stays toxic. DO NOT OPEN THE BAG!.

 

[BoomCorals]

DO NOT OPEN THE BAGS! There is nothing in the bags to convert ammonia. In a sealed bag the exhaled CO2 cannot escape, this in turn lowers the ph, which prevents the ammonia from becoming toxic. If the bag is opened, the CO2 escapes and the ammonia stays toxic. DO NOT OPEN THE BAG!.

This. Don't open the bag until you are ready to acclimate the fish. Also if the LFS does not use oxygen to fill the bag it will likely not survive 11 hours in the bag.

 

[Mr_Banana_Pants]

DO NOT OPEN THE BAGS! There is nothing in the bags to convert ammonia. In a sealed bag the exhaled CO2 cannot escape, this in turn lowers the ph, which prevents the ammonia from becoming toxic. If the bag is opened, the CO2 escapes and the ammonia stays toxic. DO NOT OPEN THE BAG!.

Isn't there bacteria in the aquarium water they add to the bag? How much ammonia would one fish produce that the water couldn't convert and become toxic?

 

[Mr_Banana_Pants]

Also by that logic when they pack the bags with O2 it would raise the pH and cause the ammonia to become toxic

 

[Areseebee]

Maybe it's just me, but I really feel like you should try and avoid the transport if possible. Transferring a fish is stressful enough without 12 hours of transport. I'm not saying it's impossible, obviously it's not, but its the kind of thing I'd go out of my way to avoid.

 

[Brew12]

So if I buy a fish from my lfs before I go to work and put it in my lunch box and keep it in my locker will it be ok till I go home bout 11 hrs later?

Unfortunately, no. They will not be ok. You could get away with it for an hour or two, but not 11 unless your LFS can pack them with pure oxygen.

Only thing I would be concerned with is make sure you open the bag to allow oxygen in.

DO NOT OPEN THE BAGS!

These two issues are the main problem. Without pure oxygen in the bags they may run out before the 11 hours is up. There is a big difference between 100% oxygen and 21% oxygen when it comes to how long a fish can last. If you open the bag to allow fresh air in then the pH will climb, make the ammonia in the water more toxic, and likely kill the fish.

If you are positive your LFS runs no copper or other meds you might be able to use Prime to allow air exchange without harming the fish, but this would b a risk.

Isn't there bacteria in the aquarium water they add to the bag?

Very little nitrifying bacteria is in the water. Most of it clings to hard surfaces. This is why porous rock is used in aquariums. More surface area for the nitrifying bacteria.

Also by that logic when they pack the bags with O2 it would raise the pH and cause the ammonia to become toxic

No. There is no relationship between O2 and pH. It is only CO2 that impacts it.

 

[Mr_Banana_Pants]

I know oxygen won't raise the pH, but wouldn't the higher concentration of oxygen in the bag cause more gas exchange with the co2 in the water causing the pH to stay in the 8-8.3 range rather then dropping over time while the fish breaths?

 

[eatbreakfast]

I know oxygen won't raise the pH, but wouldn't the higher concentration of oxygen in the bag cause more gas exchange with the co2 in the water causing the pH to stay in the 8-8.3 range rather then dropping over time while the fish breaths?

Because the bag is sealed gases don't escape, so the water reaches it's O2 saturation once the bag is sealed and it really just becomes chemical conversions and exchanges. A larger bag with more water and O2 will be more stable, but will also have greater dilution when ammonia is produced.

I wouldn't worry too much about air vs oxygen, unless dealing with large fish. Many fish are in transport closer to 24hrs, and the bags are not filled with nearly as much air as at most LFS. In fact, if you've ever seen how fish are bagged from direct shipments from the Philippines or Indonesia, you will see that the bags are often limp, not tight and balloon-like, like retailers bag.

 

[Brew12]

I know oxygen won't raise the pH, but wouldn't the higher concentration of oxygen in the bag cause more gas exchange with the co2 in the water causing the pH to stay in the 8-8.3 range rather then dropping over time while the fish breaths?

There will be some gas exchange but not enough to maintain pH at anywhere near those levels.
Time to let my inner nerd out.

The CO2 in water creates carbonic acid.
CO2+H2O -> H2CO3

Carbonic acid interacts with the alkalinity (carbonates) in our seawater with the following equilibrium equation

H2CO3<->H + HCO3 <-> H2 + CO3

This equilibrium shows that not all of the CO2 exhaled by the fish is readily available for air exchange. Some will be exchanged out which will slow the drop in pH but not nearly enough to maintain it. Next time you buy a fish, either online or locally, check the pH of the water. Odds are it is much lower than you expect. If you have fish shipped you can expect it to be close to 7.0

 

[Mr_Banana_Pants]

There will be some gas exchange but not enough to maintain pH at anywhere near those levels.
Time to let my inner nerd out.

The CO2 in water creates carbonic acid.
CO2+H2O -> H2CO3

Carbonic acid interacts with the alkalinity (carbonates) in our seawater with the following equilibrium equation

H2CO3<->H + HCO3 <-> H2 + CO3

This equilibrium shows that not all of the CO2 exhaled by the fish is readily available for air exchange. Some will be exchanged out which will slow the drop in pH but not nearly enough to maintain it. Next time you buy a fish, either online or locally, check the pH of the water. Odds are it is much lower than you expect. If you have fish shipped you can expect it to be close to 7.0

Appreciate the education, thanks

 

[BoomCorals]

There will be some gas exchange but not enough to maintain pH at anywhere near those levels.
Time to let my inner nerd out.

The CO2 in water creates carbonic acid.
CO2+H2O -> H2CO3

Carbonic acid interacts with the alkalinity (carbonates) in our seawater with the following equilibrium equation

H2CO3<->H + HCO3 <-> H2 + CO3

This equilibrium shows that not all of the CO2 exhaled by the fish is readily available for air exchange. Some will be exchanged out which will slow the drop in pH but not nearly enough to maintain it. Next time you buy a fish, either online or locally, check the pH of the water. Odds are it is much lower than you expect. If you have fish shipped you can expect it to be close to 7.0

This is correct, the PH in the water drops quite a bit when the fish is packed with pure O2 and shipped. The ammonia in the bag is less toxic at the lower PH level. When you open the bag, the gas exchange occurs and the ammonia quickly becomes toxic because the PH level rises.

Note the ammonia charts here. The lower the PH the less toxic the ammonia is. http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/your-guide-to-ammonia-toxicity-159994.html

 

[Luna]

Well what if I put pour it in a styrofoam cup then could it survive

 

[eatbreakfast]

Well what if I put pour it in a styrofoam cup then could it survive

No, there would still be the ammonia risk.

 

[tyler1503]

All I know is when I buy fish online, the sellers I buy from don't use pure oxygen. They use normal air. Unfortunately in Australia overnight shipping usually means 2-3 days shipping. My fish are in a bag for at the very least 36hrs and I've never had a unhealthy fish or coral delivered to my door.
If 36+ hrs won't harm the fish, 11 hrs won't.
It's a bit of a gamble, but I think temperature fluctuations are going the be a bigger threat than ammonia or oxygen depletion.
Every seller/LFS does something different, every fish is different so it is a bit of a gamble.
But I think you'll be ok with 11hrs in a foam box to trap heat in.