Treating Coral Crouchers

[Steve and his Animals]

Does anyone have experience treating coral crouchers in a quarantine? Specifically with copper? I have a spotted coral croucher (C. maculatus) that I've treated with coppersafe with seemingly no issues. Now I have a trio of Madagascar coral crouchers (C. madagascariensis) in the same QT with no coppersafe right now. I was wondering if there is any difference in treating the different species or any observed long-term effects of treating coral crouches with copper, since they're scorpion fish after all.

 

[Steve and his Animals]

@lion king Any insights? I know you've said most scorpions and lions don't tolerate copper.

 

[lion king]

I would strongly recommend against it, copper is a death sentence to any and all scorps. These fish benefit from a robust thick slime coating, which in nature sheds to rid any parasitic attack. Only a very sickly croucher would be threatened by a protazoan disease and transferring to another tank would be very unlikely due to high resistance. and the inability to attach. An observational qt for 4 weeks or more is all that is needed. Concerns of internal parasites is more likely, and will present if not eating. Then treatment with general cure or fritz paracleanse should be done with care, and only if necessary. Split dose into thirds and ramp up over 24 hrs.

Just to be clear, surviving treatment is not success, they will always die soon afterwards, at most several months but usually sooner. I have dissected many scorps after exposure to copper, and they all have severe liver damage.

 

[Steve and his Animals]

I would strongly recommend against it, copper is a death sentence to any and all scorps. These fish benefit from a robust thick slime coating, which in nature sheds to rid any parasitic attack. Only a very sickly croucher would be threatened by a protazoan disease and transferring to another tank would be very unlikely due to high resistance. and the inability to attach. An observational qt for 4 weeks or more is all that is needed. Concerns of internal parasites is more likely, and will present if not eating. Then treatment with general cure or fritz paracleanse should be done with care, and only if necessary. Split dose into thirds and ramp up over 24 hrs.

Just to be clear, surviving treatment is not success, they will always die soon afterwards, at most several months but usually sooner. I have dissected many scorps after exposure to copper, and they all have severe liver damage.

Interesting, I assumed as much but had absent-mindedly treated with copper forgetting the spotted was in the tank. All looks well as of now, but it's been about 5-6 months if I recall. Have you seen this issue specifically in coral crouchers?

 

[lion king]

Interesting, I assumed as much but had absent-mindedly treated with copper forgetting the spotted was in the tank. All looks well as of now, but it's been about 5-6 months if I recall. Have you seen this issue specifically in coral crouchers?

I have not seen it specifically with coral crouchers as they are not common. I have only known one person keep them. I'm speaking of Scorpaenidae as a whole, I've track enough unexplained deaths to copper exposure for it not to be a coincidence. I've had people bring me dead lions right from their copper dosed qt tanks, dissected them and found liquified livers. I've dissected dozens of lions after unexplained deaths to find out there was one thing in common, copper exposure. Some may say "correlation doesn't mean causation", but I've seen it enough not to take the chance. You can hope for the best as there are variables, just as with humans. The genetic disposition of the individual, the concentration and length of exposure. Perhaps even after care with tank conditions and diet. My theory is it has to do with species that eat on a fast/gorge cycle in the wild, as eels are the same, and anglers. These species metabolism is different, and perhaps toxins settle in the liver and are harder to expel. These species are also extremely sensitive to any tank cleaners or pest eradicators. You may find an exception, but I just haven't. I haven't figured out a liver detox yet, there could be a diet and supplementation that could help, I just haven't figured it out yet.

 

[Steve and his Animals]

I have not seen it specifically with coral crouchers as they are not common. I have only known one person keep them. I'm speaking of Scorpaenidae as a whole, I've track enough unexplained deaths to copper exposure for it not to be a coincidence. I've had people bring me dead lions right from their copper dosed qt tanks, dissected them and found liquified livers. I've dissected dozens of lions after unexplained deaths to find out there was one thing in common, copper exposure. Some may say "correlation doesn't mean causation", but I've seen it enough not to take the chance. You can hope for the best as there are variables, just as with humans. The genetic disposition of the individual, the concentration and length of exposure. Perhaps even after care with tank conditions and diet. My theory is it has to do with species that eat on a fast/gorge cycle in the wild, as eels are the same, and anglers. These species metabolism is different, and perhaps toxins settle in the liver and are harder to expel. These species are also extremely sensitive to any tank cleaners or pest eradicators. You may find an exception, but I just haven't. I haven't figured out a liver detox yet, there could be a diet and supplementation that could help, I just haven't figured it out yet.

You might be onto something with the metabolic rate idea. Coral crouchers are odd in the scorpionfish world as they're supposed to be planktivores, which seems right with how they feed in aquaria. This would lead me to believe they have a much faster metabolism than others. It's definitely interesting that the spotted I have seems completely unphased by the whole thing, but again I might not be out of the woods yet.

 

[lion king]

You might be onto something with the metabolic rate idea. Coral crouchers are odd in the scorpionfish world as they're supposed to be planktivores, which seems right with how they feed in aquaria. This would lead me to believe they have a much faster metabolism than others. It's definitely interesting that the spotted I have seems completely unphased by the whole thing, but again I might not be out of the woods yet.

My understanding is that they feed on benthic invertebrates in the wild. They don't swim, per se, and mostly hang in between coral branches and such and munch on coral crabs and the like.

 

[Steve and his Animals]

My understanding is that they feed on benthic invertebrates in the wild. They don't swim, per se, and mostly hang in between coral branches and such and munch on coral crabs and the like.

Interesting. From dealing with them they seem way too small to take on coral crabs anywhere near the size of something like Trapezia, but I'm sure there's plenty of small benthic inverts living amongst wild sps colonies that they take advantage of. I was always under the impression that they take food from the water that floats by their home of choice; maybe they only do this in aquariums, or maybe it's a bit of both. The maculatus has been a total pig, like a clown/coral goby with a much larger mouth, but we'll see how the madagascariensis fare. I imagine not much different based on their appearance.

 

[lion king]

Interesting. From dealing with them they seem way too small to take on coral crabs anywhere near the size of something like Trapezia, but I'm sure there's plenty of small benthic inverts living amongst wild sps colonies that they take advantage of. I was always under the impression that they take food from the water that floats by their home of choice; maybe they only do this in aquariums, or maybe it's a bit of both. The maculatus has been a total pig, like a clown/coral goby with a much larger mouth, but we'll see how the madagascariensis fare. I imagine not much different based on their appearance.

Do you target feed them, they would normally not get enough from feeding from the water column. Scorps will tend to wither away over time when people rely on them to feed from the water column. They can live for a while but over time will never catch enough food. Many people even attempt this with dwarf lions and they can never catch enough food without being target fed. The more I've learned about the crouchers the more they seem to fall into the classic scorp nature. Most don't seem to keep them that long, for all my reports it seems a year at best.

 

[Steve and his Animals]

Do you target feed them, they would normally not get enough from feeding from the water column. Scorps will tend to wither away over time when people rely on them to feed from the water column. They can live for a while but over time will never catch enough food. Many people even attempt this with dwarf lions and they can never catch enough food without being target fed. The more I've learned about the crouchers the more they seem to fall into the classic scorp nature. Most don't seem to keep them that long, for all my reports it seems a year at best.

As of now they are in a 12"x6" acclimation box within my 40g QT, so basically they are broadcast fed within that smaller enclosure: pseudo-target feeding, in a way. I'm doing the same with my fu manchu, who is now taking virtually anything I offer him on tongs (krill, chunks of fish, larry's foods, etc.). They seem to recognize me and peak out when I am near, and dart up slightly to grab food as it drifts past. Like I said, the spotted eats like a big since I've had him for quite a few months. The madagascars seem to be adapting well to frozen foods but not pellets yet like the spotted.

 

[Steve and his Animals]

As of now, all coral crouchers are still alive and eating well. The one that was exposed to coppersafe months before the beginning of this thread is still around, acting normally. Wondering if copper doesn't affect them like other scorpions still.

 

[lion king]

As of now, all coral crouchers are still alive and eating well. The one that was exposed to coppersafe months before the beginning of this thread is still around, acting normally. Wondering if copper doesn't affect them like other scorpions still.

Has it been more than a year, I've seen unexpected deaths as much as 1.5 years after exposure. The reason I suspect copper exposure is because of the liver damage and the number of cases I've seen. There was a time when used to do a few dissections a month. Just as with humans, fish are individuals. Expose 100 scorps to copper and a very huge percentage of them are going to die, period. Also the concentration and duration of exposure, so there are always variables. The possible liver damage at the very least could cause a decrease in lifespan , it's just not something that should be risked.

 

[Steve and his Animals]

Has it been more than a year, I've seen unexpected deaths as much as 1.5 years after exposure. The reason I suspect copper exposure is because of the liver damage and the number of cases I've seen. There was a time when used to do a few dissections a month. Just as with humans, fish are individuals. Expose 100 scorps to copper and a very huge percentage of them are going to die, period. Also the concentration and duration of exposure, so there are always variables. The possible liver damage at the very least could cause a decrease in lifespan , it's just not something that should be risked.

I got this one back in May. Figured I'd just update. Not quite a year, but still a long time after the initial treatment.