Treating ICH directly in a FOWLR system

Mr Cob · Dec 12, 2012

I'm thinking about making my entire breeding program parasite free...or at least ICH free.

I lost a black ice male today to ICH and his female snowflake is also showing signs. Serious bummer and I really cannot afford to go through this too many times.

Fortunately I have all of my pairs spread out across 4 systems...so really praying my casualties are minimal.

So...if I treat all of my systems directly what product would you suggest? The systems will not have coral and i will do my best at removing snails and inverts. They will have fish, deep sand beds and macro algae...pretty much reef thanks with reef parameters but without the coral.

Looking for suggestions from those that have treated systems directly. I have a lot of clowns to treat across 4 systems and do not wish to set up quarantine. Once all systems have been treated I will set up a quarantine tank for any new fish.

Thanks for the help.

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KoleTang · Dec 12, 2012

Hypo-salinity. It will destroy your biological filter, just make sure you've got the filtration to make up for it.

altolamprologus · Dec 12, 2012

If you can take out the macro algae, you can treat it with low levels of copper and formalin. It will treat the ich slowly, but there won't be too much risk of messing up your fishes' fertility like higher levels of copper can do. I honestly don't know what exact levels you'll need, but at the store I work at, we use very low levels of copper and formalin on almost all of the fish to prevent disease outbreaks and make sure the fish are disease free. We keep a hermit crab in each system because they can survive just fine at low levels of copper, but will die if it gets too high so it's a nice indicator that's more effective than test kits if you're willing to do that. Then when you're done, after about 2 weeks, just run a skimmer and some carbon to take out all the medicine and you're good to go. The only downside is your rock and sand will absorb some copper so you'll never be able to use them for a reef tank.

Oh, and make sure your salinity is around 1.020 because fish do better with medicine at lower salinities.

NanaReefer · Dec 12, 2012

I've personally used ICH Attack by Kordon in my reef system. Successfully! 100% organic and invert safe. It killed the visible ICH on my Orange Fire Fish and I've had no new outbreaks at all.

Mr Cob · Dec 12, 2012

I've been reading a lot of threads about treating via hyposalinity, 4 weeks at 1.009.

I will either do hyposalinity or copper for the fish for 4 weeks and fishless for 4-8 weeks on as many systems as possible. I'm leaning more towards copper meds along with immune system support medication.

The good news is I still have a 4 stall breeder system to set up which will give me the extra system I need to juggle things around and start with a control system or quarantine.

I'm really phoping and praying this does not go bad once I start treating.

Thank you for the replies.

Helifreak · Dec 12, 2012

I am using Seachem cupramine on my clownfish in QT. They seem to be eating and doing fine. Also I dose seachem stab in the tank. If you want you can dose that on your Fish only tank also.

cdness · Dec 12, 2012

There is a local person in our reef club who swears by the Microbe-Lift Herbtana product.

Other than that I personally used hyposalinity when I had to treat it in QT...

SeymourDuncan · Dec 12, 2012

In a FOWLR I would go Hypo. Only for the fact that it may become a home for future inverts some day and the risk of not getting it all out before you add the macro back to your tank is small, but still there. I understand why you dont want to quarantine the fish, so quarantining the macro is smart. Here is what I would do to maintain the Biology.
In your "macro quarantine" which really just has to be large enough to hold it, a pump, and a light, I would add as many rocks as you can as well to keep the bacteria alive in with the macro. this should make the bacterial repopulation a bit faster when your system is ready for normal salinity. just feed the rocks in quarantine a little but of stuff...the macro will also appreciate it. if you have sand, i would try to salvage a good amount as well. The ich will starve out in a fishless system, so all the stuff in qt will be good to go once your main tanks are.

Of course during hypo there will be mass die off on all the surface area of every particle in your tank that is capable of holding bacteria, even the water column. It is good to run carbon to help with that...water changes...just be sure to kepp the pH constant. that is most important. The pH is what allows certain fish like Mollies to handle marine life, so it works the other way when doing hypo. A buffer of course will help and i check the pH 2x a day minimum through the whole process.
btw all the stuff (macro, rock, and/or sand) in quarantine will need 8 weeks at least for the ich to starve out. so if your system is done early, you will need to hold off til QT is ich free or its back to ground zero.
Just an Idea to lower the stress factor on the critters.

I am glad you are planning to QT your future animals, sometimes we learn the hard way...I did

Now when I help people set up tanks I make them QT or I dont help them lol.

Saltgator · Dec 12, 2012

Warlock_trivection_Falken said:
In a FOWLR I would go Hypo. Only for the fact that it may become a home for future inverts some day and the risk of not getting it all out before you add the macro back to your tank is small, but still there. I understand why you dont want to quarantine the fish, so quarantining the macro is smart. Here is what I would do to maintain the Biology.
In your "macro quarantine" which really just has to be large enough to hold it, a pump, and a light, I would add as many rocks as you can as well to keep the bacteria alive in with the macro. this should make the bacterial repopulation a bit faster when your system is ready for normal salinity. just feed the rocks in quarantine a little but of stuff...the macro will also appreciate it. if you have sand, i would try to salvage a good amount as well. The ich will starve out in a fishless system, so all the stuff in qt will be good to go once your main tanks are.

Of course during hypo there will be mass die off on all the surface area of every particle in your tank that is capable of holding bacteria, even the water column. It is good to run carbon to help with that...water changes...just be sure to kepp the pH constant. that is most important. The pH is what allows certain fish like Mollies to handle marine life, so it works the other way when doing hypo. A buffer of course will help and i check the pH 2x a day minimum through the whole process.
btw all the stuff (macro, rock, and/or sand) in quarantine will need 8 weeks at least for the ich to starve out. so if your system is done early, you will need to hold off til QT is ich free or its back to ground zero.
Just an Idea to lower the stress factor on the critters.

I am glad you are planning to QT your future animals, sometimes we learn the hard way...I did Now when I help people set up tanks I make them QT or I dont help them lol.

+1000. Have done hypo twice and went for 16 weeks total last time (including dropping and raising the salinity).

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Mr Cob · Dec 12, 2012

so.. in regards to hyposalinity I have heard in other forums that some strains of cryptocaryon are resistant to hyposalinity

Aquaph8 · Dec 12, 2012

Mr Cob said:
so.. in regards to hyposalinity I have heard in other forums that some strains of cryptocaryon are resistant to hyposalinity

I've had strains resistant to copper too. The hardest part is safely getting your salinity back up to safe levels so you can use other methods. If you go hypo I reccomend an ATO and a PH monitor.

SeymourDuncan · Dec 12, 2012

^^agreed. hypo is more natural and my first action. after the treatment either works or doesn't then do like Aquaph8 said and increase salinity slowly and try to get the new waters pH as close as you can to the current pH the fish are in before you add it. If it worked then you still have to wait for the QT stuff to have let the ich starve out before you put it back (which you WILL have to acclimate back to the system like when you first added it of course). Ive melted a nice wad of chaeto before from shocking it. makes a nice mess.

If the Hypo does not work then Copper would be my next choice, but I would really not want to do it in a full system.

How many total gallons are you working with???

Mr Cob · Dec 12, 2012

4 stall breeder system currently up abd running with full blown sump/refugium 40g + 20g

Then another of the same system in process, no dsb or macro.

30g nano with dsb and macro

29g nano with dsb and macro

40g breeder tank with dsb and macro

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KoleTang · Dec 12, 2012

From what I heard, the way hypo works is the parasite's cells cannot regulate the amount of water going into them when the salinity is lowered, causing them to burst. Not sure how a parasite can be resistant unless it already has the ability to regulate the lower salinity water.

Mr Cob · Dec 13, 2012

I picked up a uv lastnight. 24w.

I did a 20% water change and added some vitamins to tank.

I then dosed with Maracide. Dosing is on day 1, 3 and 5. I'm just going to keep on trucking.

After all the reviews I honestly do not believe i can be 100% ich free or that any system can be from what I have read and from all the replies to this thread here, on MAAST and ARC..and if I can't be 100% free of the parasite then what's the point of going through all of that trouble...?

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Mr Cob · Dec 13, 2012

...all of my tanks got vitamins: Marine-Max "Disease Prevention & Life Extensions.

The 40g breeder system was treated for ich with Maracide and the UV was added to this system.

SeymourDuncan · Dec 13, 2012

If ich is not around fish it has no food supply. I suppose if it died and got stuck in the sand it would be considered in the tank, but it would be dead.

I have had ich during my noobness and I have the exact same rocks the whole time. I do not add anything to my systems involving parasite control because I did cure it 100%.

My theory is this: at least why I got ich in the first place along with most of the people I know that have.

People that g the route of curing their systems as a whole rather than through qt are already not putting in 100% of what they could be doing into the treatment process. By not quarantining each living thing that goes into their system they are putting themselves at risk from the Get go.

Put yourself in their fins. Would you rather get prescribed antibiotics for a lifetime sore throat or would you rather have your tonsils removed?

Maybe if it was not for breeding it would be more ok. I would just be worried about the babies being more vulnerable to the ich

Uv is another one of those 50/50 things that may or may not help. I don use them. But they do work if utilized correctly