Treating Ich in DT (no live rock / additional fish/snails/etc)

[tutmatt3]

Ok Guys,

So I know some of you have already been helping me w/ my 2x clowns, which I have in my DT. I'm currently setting up a QT tank for future fish, and I'm making the executive decision to NOT transfer these guys into QT, and wanting to treat them in display.

The lil one (suspect of ich, 1x big white spot only, and some symptoms during a dip) seems to get extremely stressed while moving, and honestly I'm too nervous to move & stress him to a new system again. He acts perfectly fine in my DT only, and I think he's been through enough shock in the past week.

He's already acclimated to my 55g with 35lb dry rock & 60lb live sand. There is no other 'life' in the tank (snails, other fish, live rock, etc). Just these 2x guys

Since I discovered the potential ich, I've been treating with this product (which has been brought to my attention has formalin and is frowned upon) for 3x days now in the DT. https://www.amazon.com/Fritz-Aquati...=1484550153&sr=1-1&keywords=mardel+quick+cure

Avoiding a copper treatment, are there any suggested methods to treat him while in my display? Since my tank is pretty bare (just the dry rock / sand), I figure it can just be considered a glorified quarantine as long as I can avoid treatments such as copper. Suggestions?

------
On a side curious question:
I see everyone suggesting running fallow for 8x weeks while fish are in QT. Why is it not possible to treat the fish in QT, and do a full water change in the DT, or raise temps extremely high for a week or so to rid it from that system & restore it for the fish to hop back in earlier once finished in QT? I know this is a 'shortcut' question, but my curiosity really wonders why this practice isn't considered an option, rather than waiting 2x months.)


(The 1x big white spot I noticed since purchase date 4x days ago, hasn't spread or reduced since)

 

[tutmatt3]

I've been reading on the Hypo-salinity treatment:
http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/hyposalinity.html

Any recommendations on this method? As mentioned I only have the 2x fish in the tank, dry rock, & carib-sea live sand

I can technically drop my 'quick cure' treatment, and run the tank 8x weeks of hypo-salinity w/ my fish in there?

---
Another side Q. When bringing new fish home for QT in a qt tank, should I also use the hypo-salinity method to rid them of ich they most likely have too? I've seen this method ONLY treats ich (if read correctly).
Since they'll be in QT, maybe it would best to keep normal water parameters since I can treat more medicine easier there.

Cheers!

 

[DLHDesign]

I see everyone suggesting running fallow for 8x weeks while fish are in QT. Why is it not possible to treat the fish in QT, and do a full water change in the DT, or raise temps extremely high for a week or so to rid it from that system & restore it for the fish to hop back in earlier once finished in QT?

Even during a full water change, the parasite will (has already, really) attach itself to the rocks, sand, etc. This means that draining the tank won't rid the tank of the parasite; it will just temporarily remove it from the water - which I'm pretty sure it could survive (the rock won't completely dry; leaving plenty of pockets of moisture for the nasties to live in). Rising temps - or anything else you could likely do - would also impact your bacteria population; the same bacteria population that makes your tank safe for fish and/or corals to survive.
So what you're basically suggesting is a total tank reboot. If you're at that point, you could boil/acid wash the rock and sand (making it all sterile, in other words) and restart the tank, I'd think... For most people, this is not an option - the fallow duration allows them to keep their corals and inverts in the DT, while the fish are treated in QT. That's the most common scenario; but it does not sound like it's yours. If you do go the route of a total tank reboot, keep in mind that you're going to have to go through the initial tank cycle again - which is either lengthy, costly, or both.

I've been reading on the Hypo-salinity treatment: ... Any recommendations on this method?

See here. I've avoided trying hyposalinity because it takes the same amount of time as the Tank Transfer Method, yet (I feel) it is a more difficult procedure to get right. In other words, transferring tanks is much easier (for me) than monitoring salinity and Ph for a month. But that's me; everyone is different.

When bringing new fish home for QT in a qt tank, should I also use the hypo-salinity method to rid them of ich they most likely have too?

I assume all fish have ich when I get them - even those from vendors that have shown themselves to be top-notch and even after they appear totally healthy (I've got two tangs halfway through QT that are both eating well and show no signs of problems, yet they will continue on my normal QT track). I'd rather be wrong while being conservative than wrong while being hasty.
Given that is a shared outlook, then yes - you would want to QT any new fish you receive. Exactly what method you use for QT is, of course, a personal choice. As I said above; I use TTM as it's (relatively) easy for me. There is an up-front cost to set up two basic QT systems (~$100 total?), but that is a one-time expense which is recouped over the life of the tank. Additionally, having not one but two QT systems ready to go at any moment provides for redundancies that are so critical to this hobby.

 

[tutmatt3]

Even during a full water change, the parasite will (has already, really) attach itself to the rocks, sand, etc. This means that draining the tank won't rid the tank of the parasite; it will just temporarily remove it from the water - which I'm pretty sure it could survive (the rock won't completely dry; leaving plenty of pockets of moisture for the nasties to live in). Rising temps - or anything else you could likely do - would also impact your bacteria population; the same bacteria population that makes your tank safe for fish and/or corals to survive.
So what you're basically suggesting is a total tank reboot. If you're at that point, you could boil/acid wash the rock and sand (making it all sterile, in other words) and restart the tank, I'd think... For most people, this is not an option - the fallow duration allows them to keep their corals and inverts in the DT, while the fish are treated in QT. That's the most common scenario; but it does not sound like it's yours. If you do go the route of a total tank reboot, keep in mind that you're going to have to go through the initial tank cycle again - which is either lengthy, costly, or both.


See here. I've avoided trying hyposalinity because it takes the same amount of time as the Tank Transfer Method, yet (I feel) it is a more difficult procedure to get right. In other words, transferring tanks is much easier (for me) than monitoring salinity and Ph for a month. But that's me; everyone is different.


I assume all fish have ich when I get them - even those from vendors that have shown themselves to be top-notch and even after they appear totally healthy (I've got two tangs halfway through QT that are both eating well and show no signs of problems, yet they will continue on my normal QT track). I'd rather be wrong while being conservative than wrong while being hasty.
Given that is a shared outlook, then yes - you would want to QT any new fish you receive. Exactly what method you use for QT is, of course, a personal choice. As I said above; I use TTM as it's (relatively) easy for me. There is an up-front cost to set up two basic QT systems (~$100 total?), but that is a one-time expense which is recouped over the life of the tank. Additionally, having not one but two QT systems ready to go at any moment provides for redundancies that are so critical to this hobby.

Wow what an awesome write up, thanks for sharing & thanks for sharing your experiences as well.

My only issue w/ TTM is I only have room for 1x QT tank, and don't have room for another. I could use buckets yes - but that wouldn't really allow me to observe the fish & inspect for other possible issues.
I also think having to empty / clean / dry a tank/bucket every 3x days might become more of a chore than monitoring 1x QT (but obviously I don't know, too new and never tried either)

Since I have a 55g, I think hypo might be a more attractive method for this 1x time scenario. Keeping a consistent salinity has been quite easy for me so far, and since I'm a math junkie, it should be fairly easy for me to maintain as well.


This would also allow me to grab my next fish & begin QT in my new QT set up, which would allow that fish to be ready to hop into my DT once my DT is complete being a temp hospital for my 2x clowns.

It's crazy man, this hobby is like an art! (I'm an actual artist myself). So many ways to accomplish 1 goal haha

 

[Brew12]

I'm worried you have put yourself into a bad situation. Here are the directions for using Quick Cure.

Notice that it calls for it only to be used in a bare aquarium. I strongly recommend contacting Fritz (manufacturer) and asking them what the ramifications are for having put this into your DT. I'm not sure exactly what is in it or what they would recommend using to try and pull it out of the water. It may also have leached into your rock and sand. I think it is best for you to contact them directly so that you can get clear direction.

The white spot on your clown doesn't look like ich. I remember your other thread where you were concerned about the spots but can't recall the symptoms that made you feel it had ich. I'll go back to look at those in a bit.

 

[Empress]

Quick Cure is 37% Formaldehyde and Malachite Green. Do not use in DT EVER for any reason.

 

[miyags]

The white spot near the tail?If so, looks more like it got hurt.

 

[tutmatt3]

Yes that white spot.

I contacted fritz, they confirmed that the Malachite Green can introduce copper into the system. His recommendation was since at this point I finished the 3 day treatment, go ahead and put carbon back in which usually does a good job at pulling any copper out within a month, and of course to do a test for copper with the current water.

Also based off symptoms, he also noted it's most likely not ick, but a possible bacterial infection or even tumor, and not to be worried but to monitor him instead

Looks like I learned my #1 biggest lesson guys: take a lfs employee's recommendation with a grain of salt, and do thorough research before attempting a method


Thank you everyone, highly appreciate the advice

 

[tutmatt3]

Oh ya, and this is the product he recommended to remove cooper if there is a trace:
http://www.seachem.com/cuprisorb.php

That way any1 in the future has reference if they ever find their-selves in my shoes.

I'll let you guys know how it goes!

 

[Brew12]

Looks like I learned my #1 biggest lesson guys: take a lfs employee's recommendation with a grain of salt, and do thorough research before attempting a method

I'm glad Fritz was able to steer you in a positive direction. Cuprisorb seems to be a fine product although I know Polyfilters are preferred by some.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4335
My biggest concern was that their may be some other chemical in Quick Cure that would have more lasting impact or be harder to remove. I'm pleased that doesn't appear to be the case.

Your #1 lesson should be to take everyone's recommendations with a grain of salt. Many LFS employees are part time help with little to no experience. They also have a profit motive. I wouldn't blindly trust the advice you get on a web forum, even if it is R2R. That is true regardless of who it comes from. I don't care if it comes from regular members, a reef squad member like myself, or Humblefish. Hopefully, everyone here will give you what they believe is the best advice possible. You should be able to understand exactly why each recommendation is made and why it will work. Remember that "because it worked for me" isn't an explanation it is an anecdotal experience. Another thing to keep in mind is that no one on here will be able to observe your fish as well as you can. Sometime a picture will make an accurate diagnosis very easy. More often than not we rely on your observations but tell you what you should be looking for. It is still up to you to make the final decision and decide on a treatment option. At times, it is appropriate to take a guess and hope for the best. Try to make that as educated a guess as possible.

Oh, and the one recommendation I hope you don't take with a grain of salt is my recommendation to take every other recommendation with a grain of salt.

 

[tutmatt3]

I'm glad Fritz was able to steer you in a positive direction. Cuprisorb seems to be a fine product although I know Polyfilters are preferred by some.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4335
My biggest concern was that their may be some other chemical in Quick Cure that would have more lasting impact or be harder to remove. I'm pleased that doesn't appear to be the case.

Your #1 lesson should be to take everyone's recommendations with a grain of salt. Many LFS employees are part time help with little to no experience. They also have a profit motive. I wouldn't blindly trust the advice you get on a web forum, even if it is R2R. That is true regardless of who it comes from. I don't care if it comes from regular members, a reef squad member like myself, or Humblefish. Hopefully, everyone here will give you what they believe is the best advice possible. You should be able to understand exactly why each recommendation is made and why it will work. Remember that "because it worked for me" isn't an explanation it is an anecdotal experience. Another thing to keep in mind is that no one on here will be able to observe your fish as well as you can. Sometime a picture will make an accurate diagnosis very easy. More often than not we rely on your observations but tell you what you should be looking for. It is still up to you to make the final decision and decide on a treatment option. At times, it is appropriate to take a guess and hope for the best. Try to make that as educated a guess as possible.

Oh, and the one recommendation I hope you don't take with a grain of salt is my recommendation to take every other recommendation with a grain of salt.

I'll definitely look into curisorb & the polyfilter & this time RESEARCH before adding anything new into the tank xD

This is what the product has listed:
http://fritzaquatics.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Quick-Cure-SDS-2014.pdf

So I guess the expected question:
Will I be able to get all copper out 1 way or another, and will I be able to grow coral without fear once test kits read 0 (in due time of course!)

 

[Brew12]

Will I be able to get all copper out 1 way or another, and will I be able to grow coral without fear once test kits read 0 (in due time of course!)

You should be able to get it all out. The only question is how much got absorbed into your rocks and how long it will take to leach out. I would keep a copper absorbent in my system for a long time if it were mine. Cuprisorb is a cheap insurance policy when you compare it to the price of coral.

FYI, Malachite Green should not contain copper. However, if you notice they only list around 50% of the total ingredients on the SDS sheet. That is one reason it is good to go back to the manufacturer for a recommendation when dealing with something like this.

 

[tutmatt3]

You should be able to get it all out. The only question is how much got absorbed into your rocks and how long it will take to leach out. I would keep a copper absorbent in my system for a long time if it were mine. Cuprisorb is a cheap insurance policy when you compare it to the price of coral.

FYI, Malachite Green should not contain copper. However, if you notice they only list around 50% of the total ingredients on the SDS sheet. That is one reason it is good to go back to the manufacturer for a recommendation when dealing with something like this.

Copy that. Thanks!

One last question for this case:
How accurate will the copper tests be? If I test today & 0, and in a week 0, should I not worry? Or is it possible for the rocks to hold it all and one day BAM I have a copper mine?! lol

 

[Brew12]

Copy that. Thanks!

One last question for this case:
How accurate will the copper tests be? If I test today & 0, and in a week 0, should I not worry? Or is it possible for the rocks to hold it all and one day BAM I have a copper mine?! lol

I'm guessing that Quick Cure only contains very low levels of copper so no, you should never experience a "copper mine". I wouldn't trust your test kit since it isn't designed to test for very low levels. When you finish your treatment, I would run the activated carbon as per the manufacturer and then put in some cuprisorb or polyfilter for at least a few months.

 

[tutmatt3]

I'm guessing that Quick Cure only contains very low levels of copper so no, you should never experience a "copper mine". I wouldn't trust your test kit since it isn't designed to test for very low levels. When you finish your treatment, I would run the activated carbon as per the manufacturer and then put in some cuprisorb or polyfilter for at least a few months.

Sounds good!

I'll be doing a 25% water change today & tossing back in the carbon (wrapped up the 3x day treatment).

Thanks again everyone. Growing pains & early lesson on importance of QT. Cheers!

 

[tutmatt3]

Just wanted to chime in & let everyone know, so it definitely doesn't appear ot be ick.
I sent the pick to the guys @ Fritz, and 2x of them confirm it's most likely a tumor.

It actually has severely faded & is almost gone, so that's good! I'll be sure to watch the guy for a few more weeks & confirm he's good.
Havn't treated with anything besides the 3x day quick cure.

Thanks everyone!