Treating ich with coppersafe, still having ich?

[reef-geek]

Hi, I have treat my fish with coppersafe @ 1.75ppm for 30 days, I recently(2 weeks ago) brought the copper down to 0.5ppm with water changes, now do I see ich again?
please help identify, thanks

 

[gbroadbridge]

How did you test the copper level?

Don't forget if it drops you have to start all over.

Regards
Graham.

 

[vetteguy53081]

You never reached therapeutic level which is 2.5 for 30 days. As you lowered the amount, coppersafe no long had full effect.
Also, if you are using API copper kit, you likely have false readings
I run coppersafe at 2.25 for full 30 days

 

[gbroadbridge]

You never reached therapeutic level which is 2.5 for 30 days. As you lowered the amount, coppersafe no long had full effect.
Also, if you are using API copper kit, you likely have false readings
I run coppersafe at 2.25 for full 30 days

I'd be cautious at 2.25 for a tang, but agree 1.75 was too low especially as it probably dropped during treatment.

I think Fritz say 2ppm, but I have no experience with the product as it is banned in Australia.

Regards
Graham.

 

[reef-geek]

How did you test the copper level?

Don't forget if it drops you have to start all over.

Regards
Graham.

I tested using Hanna every 3 days, didn't drop, I add med to new water when changing water.

You never reached therapeutic level which is 2.5 for 30 days. As you lowered the amount, coppersafe no long had full effect.
Also, if you are using API copper kit, you likely have false readings
I run coppersafe at 2.25 for full 30 days

What? I thought the therapeutic level is 1.5ppm for Coppersafe

So both of you think it's ich based on the picture not something like mucus plugs or something else?

 

[gbroadbridge]

I tested using Hanna every 3 days, didn't drop, I add med to new water when changing water.



What? I thought the therapeutic level is 1.5ppm for Coppersafe

So both of you think it's ich based on the picture not something like mucus plugs or something else?

Oh yes, I'm reasonably certain that is ich.

Do the dots move at all or are they stationery? Give it a week and if they dissapear then it goes to 100% certainly.

To be sure we'd have to pluck one off and put it under a microscope, which is what a vet or marine biologist would do.

I hate ich.

Good news is if you feed the fish well it is normally not fatal, but the bad news it does mean your whole DT is infected and you either manage it with a big UV or let the tank go fallow.

I went UV.




Regards
Graham.

 

[polyppal]

If your afraid of running them through copper again you might look into hyposalinity. If your certain it’s Ich

 

[Squidward]

I would skip copper altogether and do TTM. TTM have worked tremendously for me and it only takes 12 days. No need to measure and check copper levels etc.

 

[Max93]

I know this is not copper related but TTM or hyposalinity would work too if you’re treating just one fish.
I’m going to run hypo in my fish only tank for 30 days

 

[GARRIGA]

Consider using a Diatom filter to remove the free swimming stage. Similar concept to TTM without the additional tanks or water changes. Marineland polishing filter is affordable and the diatom earth is cheap. Instructions on YouTube on how to use it. Just change it out as it clogs. Best part is that it can be used on a reef tank without needing to remove the fish. Still need to either remove ich from the display tank or go fishless for extended periods.

Copper isn't effective on all fish and requires precise testing to ensure it's at a lethal enough dose for what is being treated but not lethal enough to the fish. Can;t have rocks or gravel. As effective as it is, it can also be deadly.

 

[Steve180]

I'd be cautious at 2.25 for a tang, but agree 1.75 was too low especially as it probably dropped during treatment.

I think Fritz say 2ppm, but I have no experience with the product as it is banned in Australia.

Regards
Graham.

What is the recommended ppm for Tang? I've noticed larger tang can't handle higher dosage

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

What is the recommended ppm for Tang? I've noticed larger tang can't handle higher dosage

Full dose Coppersafe is 2.5 ppm. Tangs can handle that with no issues.

jay

 

[Steve180]

Full dose Coppersafe is 2.5 ppm. Tangs can handle that with no issues.

jay

Thanks for the info Jay. From personal experience every time I added more copper above 1.5ppm to larger tangs they go crazy or stop eating. But if I do it slowly then I noticed they are ok. Little tangs can handle it right away so I was just curious.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thanks for the info Jay. From personal experience every time I added more copper above 1.5ppm to larger tangs they go crazy or stop eating. But if I do it slowly then I noticed they are ok. Little tangs can handle it right away so I was just curious.

I've never had any issues with tangs in coppersafe, I've dosed thousands of them. You need to look at all variables - for example, large tangs don't handle small treatment tanks well.

"Copper hesitancy" is a huge issue - I've had a number of cases where "copper killed me fish before I even reached a full dose" and when I dig down, I learn that they had moderately infected fish and were slowly raising the copper level (9 days in one case). Additionally, I see people take the copper level to 1.5 and then the fish die. In both cases, the fish actually died from uncontrolled disease, but copper toxicity was blamed. this is especially common with velvet, less common wiht ich.

I literally never see copper issues. I use coppersafe, measured with a Hanna checker a spectrophotometer, and I never use reducing agents (ammonia removers, formalin, etc.) when dosing with copper.

For toxins in general, it is actually the smaller fish that tend to have more issues - their surface to volume ratio is such that toxins in the water tend to affect them more than larger fish of the same species.

Jay

 

[GARRIGA]

Old school trick that got lost was using diatom filters to remove the free swimming stage. Performs similar functionality to TTM without additional tanks or constant water changes. Plus copper needs exact quantity where it's lethal enough to the infection yet not lethal enough to the host and not safe to administer to all fish such as eels or those without scales, if I recall correctly. Marineland has a polishing filter that can resolve this. Plus it can be used on the DT to rid it of the infection. Can also be used to eliminate green water. Buy several and place at each corner if the tank is large enough. Fact is I'm not taking fish out of the DT. Just treat all with this method. Those infected shouldn't be reinfected and it will build up an immune response as happens in nature.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Old school trick that got lost was using diatom filters to remove the free swimming stage. Performs similar functionality to TTM without additional tanks or constant water changes. Plus copper needs exact quantity where it's lethal enough to the infection yet not lethal enough to the host and not safe to administer to all fish such as eels or those without scales, if I recall correctly. Marineland has a polishing filter that can resolve this. Plus it can be used on the DT to rid it of the infection. Can also be used to eliminate green water. Buy several and place at each corner if the tank is large enough. Fact is I'm not taking fish out of the DT. Just treat all with this method. Those infected shouldn't be reinfected and it will build up an immune response as happens in nature.

Personally, I've never had any success in resolving ich with a diatom filter - either the Vortex or the System 1 models. This is from literally decades of trying. Now, that said, I've only had limited experience with the Marineland diatom, but I really don't expect it to work any better.

The crux of the issue is two-fold; Cryptocaryon can develop an aggregating form that really doesn't spend time out in the water column, and then, dwell time comes into play for removing theronts that are out in the water column - the diatom filters cannot remove 100% of them before they reinfect the fish.

Jay

 

[GARRIGA]

Personally, I've never had any success in resolving ich with a diatom filter - either the Vortex or the System 1 models. This is from literally decades of trying. Now, that said, I've only had limited experience with the Marineland diatom, but I really don't expect it to work any better.

The crux of the issue is two-fold; Cryptocaryon can develop an aggregating form that really doesn't spend time out in the water column, and then, dwell time comes into play for removing theronts that are out in the water column - the diatom filters cannot remove 100% of them before they reinfect the fish.

Jay

It’s only going to work on that which has a swimming stage or treatable by TTM.

As far as getting reinfected, it’s as you noted with dwell time which can be solved by size of filter based on density of fish to volume of water confined. In open water I doubt there’s an issue but our tanks are often over populated even when we think they aren’t.

Why I mentioned placing one at each corner. Could also place one on each side in the middle. Problem with the MarineLand options is they only pump like 275 gallons.

I believe Votex no longer made but there are units for pools. Not sure how small those can be. All should work the same as far as using diatoms to remove small particulates. The issue is how quickly tank water can be turned to get the free swimming stage out before either getting buried or infecting.

I’m just not a fan of copper. Too easy to accidentally overdose. Hobby grade test kits aren’t 100% accurate. Even the Hanna checkers can lose calibration.

I’m aware of Copper Power that is supposedly fish safe at higher dosages but no experience with it and still want a quicker solution to irradiate the DT vs having to wait 76 days in the case of ich. I like fish more than corals or inverts. Kind of defeats the joy of owning a tank and why QT is vital yet we don’t always have the means to adequately provide and we all know we will get that one new fish we came across but not seeking yet now must and introducing to the only QT means the clocks starts all over again.