Treatment for rtn with witch hazel

[Charlie’s Frags]

I watched a video with @Mike Paletta and he mentioned he doses witch hazel for stn. Hopefully he can chime in on his experience with it

 

[Rick5]

I start used witch hazel 30 ml daily after light turn off . I dosing in the tank the stn and rtn stop and the coral begins to recovery everything look better is my 5 dose I plan to dosing for 14 days .

Are you experiencing any carbon-dosing-related symptoms from the witch hazel?

@Randy Holmes-Farley - T.N. Dickinson's witch hazel contains "Natural Grain Alcohol 14%." Will the alcohol act as a carbon source in the same way vodka would? My knowledge of chemistry is clearly imperfect.

 

[Jeto2004]

I watched a video with @Mike Paletta and he mentioned he doses witch hazel for stn. Hopefully he can chime in on his experience with it

Saw the same video. Even send an email follow up to American Reef, but haven’t received any answer as of yet

 

[Jeto2004]

Are you experiencing any carbon-dosing-related symptoms from the witch hazel?

@Randy Holmes-Farley - T.N. Dickinson's witch hazel contains "Natural Grain Alcohol 14%." Will the alcohol act as a carbon source in the same way vodka would? My knowledge of chemistry is clearly imperfect.

It should be a carbon source albeit lower potency. 14% vs ~40% for vodka. However, the complex organic mixture of hydrocarbon’s could also be a carbon source. I’m not aware of the percent make up of the „active ingredients“ in witch hazel product, but it contains calcium oxalate, gallotannins, saferole, and chemicals found in the essential oil (carvacroal, eugenol). According to the trusted source called Wikipedia.....

 

[Rick5]

It should be a carbon source albeit lower potency. 14% vs ~40% for vodka. However, the complex organic mixture of hydrocarbon’s could also be a carbon source. I’m not aware of the percent make up of the „active ingredients“ in witch hazel product, but it contains calcium oxalate, gallotannins, saferole, and chemicals found in the essential oil (carvacroal, eugenol). According to the trusted source called Wikipedia.....

Good information. Thanks. I am interested in the witch hazel component but I am not interested in carbon dosing, which is why I asked.

The alcohol free varieties of witch hazel I've happened upon contain other ingredients (e.g. lavender oil). For that reason, the alcohol free varieties do not appear to be viable options (unless the additional ingredients are harmless).

 

[92Miata]

It should be a carbon source albeit lower potency. 14% vs ~40% for vodka. However, the complex organic mixture of hydrocarbon’s could also be a carbon source. I’m not aware of the percent make up of the „active ingredients“ in witch hazel product, but it contains calcium oxalate, gallotannins, saferole, and chemicals found in the essential oil (carvacroal, eugenol). According to the trusted source called Wikipedia.....

Most people are dosing a couple of ml of vodka.

Dosing 30ml of 15% is like dosing 11.25ml of 80 proof. It's a huge dose.

 

[Rick5]

Most people are dosing a couple of ml of vodka.

Dosing 30ml of 15% is like dosing 11.25ml of 80 proof. It's a huge dose.

How can we remove the alcohol from the witch hazel? For instance, will the alcohol evaporate over time if the bottle is left open? Perhaps there's an alcohol free alternative that does not contain the additional ingredients I alluded to above.

 

[92Miata]

How can we remove the alcohol from the witch hazel? For instance, will the alcohol evaporate over time if the bottle is left open? Perhaps there's an alcohol free alternative that does not contain the additional ingredients I alluded to above.

No idea - but if we're going to evaporate out the alcohol - we have to figure out what else will evaporate.

But I don't know why people are assuming that the witch hazel is the active ingredient here - if you want to test this - put together two tanks with stn'ing corals and dose one with the witch hazel and the other with the equivalent amount of vodka.

It's way more likely at this point that anything he's seeing is due to the massive amount of carbon dosing he's doing. Maybe it's starving out the bacteria/flaggelates that are implicated in rtn/stn.

Right now this is a bit like "I drank a bottle of penicillin, but it's the echinachea tea that's making me feel better"

 

[Rick5]

Right now this is a bit like "I drank a bottle of penicillin, but it's the echinachea tea that's making me feel better"

Agreed. Undoubtedly, but that's the reality with many things in this hobby. Carbon dosing, worm wood, the live rock/dry rock debate, Zeovit, Interceptor, Levamisole and using kalk paste to kill aptaisa, among other facets of the hobby. It all starts and, in many instances, continues to rely on speculation, pseudoscience and guesses. Granted, I won't use hot sauce or pepper to try and cure Ich, but experimenting with an astringent when coral are receding (and when there are no other obvious reasons that would explain the STN/RTN doesn't sound like a bad experiment).

 

[92Miata]

Agreed. Undoubtedly, but that's the reality with many things in this hobby. Carbon dosing, worm wood, the live rock/dry rock debate, Zeovit, Interceptor, Levamisole and using kalk paste to kill aptaisa, among other facets of the hobby. It all starts and, in many instances, continues to rely on speculation, pseudoscience and guesses. Granted, I won't use hot sauce or pepper to try and cure Ich, but experimenting with an astringent when coral are receding (and when there are no other obvious reasons that would explain the STN/RTN doesn't sound like a bad experiment).

Well, mostly - but there are some exceptions. Dosing carbon for instance - we understand the method for action there - the sugar induces a Bacterial bloom which also consumes nitrates and phosphates because everything alive does. And when people started carbon dosing in the late 90s, we knew what it would do.

With levamisole and interceptor, we knew they killed similar organisms. There was theory before experiments.

With this stuff, it's "I'm dumping some face cleaner in my tank - because reasons!".

I haven't seen anyone explain why they think witch hazel will effect the bacteria or flaggelates common in rtn. There's nothing.

 

[Rick5]

Well, mostly - but there are some exceptions. Dosing carbon for instance - we understand the method for action there - the sugar induces a Bacterial bloom which also consumes nitrates and phosphates because everything alive does. And when people started carbon dosing in the late 90s, we knew what it would do.

With levamisole and interceptor, we knew they killed similar organisms. There was theory before experiments.

With this stuff, it's "I'm dumping some face cleaner in my tank - because reasons!".

I haven't seen anyone explain why they think witch hazel will effect the bacteria or flaggelates common in rtn. There's nothing.

Why are you against facial hygiene?

 

[Ozzi-reef]

Well, mostly - but there are some exceptions. Dosing carbon for instance - we understand the method for action there - the sugar induces a Bacterial bloom which also consumes nitrates and phosphates because everything alive does. And when people started carbon dosing in the late 90s, we knew what it would do.

With levamisole and interceptor, we knew they killed similar organisms. There was theory before experiments.

With this stuff, it's "I'm dumping some face cleanser in my tank - because of reasons!".

I haven't seen anyone explain why they think witch hazel will affect the bacteria or flagellates common in rtn. There's nothing.

I have to agree with this perspective. I would love this to be true (as nothing is more devastating or costly than SPS RTN) but really would want to see some science (or at least a trail of logic) before I dump aftershave in my reef tank.

 

[Huskymaniac]

About to try this to prevent my entire tank from crashing. Does the carbon need to come out?

 

[DMG Reef]

About to try this to prevent my entire tank from crashing. Does the carbon need to come out?

Apparently not enough reefers have tried this remedy to be able to answer your question. Good luck and please let us know if this worked for you.

 

[Huskymaniac]

Apparently not enough reefers have tried this remedy to be able to answer your question. Good luck and please let us know if this worked for you.

I have put two doses in the tank so far. Honestly its tough to tell if it did anything but as of right now the rtn'ing has slowed a bit. It certainly hasn't killed anything. My yellow fiji leather hasn't opened since I dosed it but it still alive. Just no polyp extension on it.

 

[Rick5]

I have used witch hazel on a couple of occasions. The first was after moving my tank. The SPS weren’t pleased, which was a shame because they were looking great prior to the move. I dosed the tank directly over the course of several days. The second was when I received three frags that didn’t ship well and smelled foul. Two of the three frags made it (after a dose of witch hazel in a small container of tank water).

The witch hazel appeared to stop the tissue necrosis. I feel like I had better results using it as a dip. (Emphasis added so people don’t freak out.)

I don’t carbon dose so I wasn’t pleased with the mulm-like effect.

 

[Huskymaniac]

I have used witch hazel on a couple of occasions. The first was after moving my tank. The SPS weren’t pleased, which was a shame because they were looking great prior to the move. I dosed the tank directly over the course of several days. The second was when I received three frags that didn’t ship well and smelled foul. Two of the three frags made it (after a dose of witch hazel in a small container of tank water).

The witch hazel appeared to stop the tissue necrosis. I feel like I had better results using it as a dip. (Emphasis added so people don’t freak out.)

I don’t carbon dose so I wasn’t pleased with the mulm-like effect.

Agree on the dip. I still am cutting out chunks of dead necrotic tissue and skeleton. The difference now is cutting branches verses chucking colonies. Its tough to say if its just the system stabilizing as I am now almost 2 weeks out from a Major alk swing or if the witch hazel is doing anything.

 

[Rick5]

Agree on the dip. I still am cutting out chunks of dead necrotic tissue and skeleton. The difference now is cutting branches verses chucking colonies. Its tough to say if its just the system stabilizing as I am now almost 2 weeks out from a Major alk swing or if the witch hazel is doing anything.

That's brutal. What dose are you using?

 

[Huskymaniac]

That's brutal. What dose are you using?

20ml per 100 gallons. When you treated the tank what did you do about the carbon? Did you leave it in? Take it out?

 

[Rick5]

20ml per 100 gallons. When you treated the tank what did you do about the carbon? Did you leave it in? Take it out?

I legitimately cannot remember, but I have the container I used so I'll check it and circle back. I think I used 10-15 ml for the in-tank treatment (daily) and I have approximately 40-50 gallons of water volume. For the dip, I used a BRS 2-part dosing cup with 5ml of witch hazel and tank water (about half way full). Hardly scientific but in the case of the frags that were dipped, they were STNing for two days. I didn't dip immediately as I was hoping they would stop receding. They didn't stop receding until I dipped them in witch hazel. I regret not taking notes, but when coral are STNing the last thing on my/your mind is to document things.