Treatment recommendations-go!

[ngoodermuth]

When they rub against something, are they targeting the gill area or somewhere else?

It's hard to say, they are so stinking fast about it. I guess they kind of start at the head and flick across it with their whole bodies. Like a cat rubbing your leg-but at lightning speed [emoji848]

 

[Humblefish]

It's hard to say, they are so stinking fast about it lol I guess they kind of start at the head and flick across it with their whole bodies.

I know its hard to do, but sometimes the best thing is to just sit back and wait & see what happens next. Observe whether or not further, more definitive, symptoms develop.

 

[ngoodermuth]

I know its hard to do, but sometimes the best thing is to just sit back and wait & see what happens next. Observe whether or not further, more definitive, symptoms develop.

Thanks Humble, you are very generous to be available so often to sooth my paranoia [emoji23][emoji23] Seriously though, I really appreciate your expertise!!

 

[evolved]

It's hard to say, they are so stinking fast about it. I guess they kind of start at the head and flick across it with their whole bodies. Like a cat rubbing your leg-but at lightning speed [emoji848]

They sometimes can do a territorial display that's not too unlike what you describe.

I would do nothing more at this point either, unless things manifest.

 

[ngoodermuth]

@Humblefish @evolved
Ok, I'm positive I'm not imagining things. He was definitely rubbing his gills on the rocks and twitching his head a bit tonight. I'm floating between resistant flukes or maybe even ich in his gills that's just not showing elsewhere.

I know I don't want to move the wrasses to the DT until whatever it is, is resolved.

So, I'm thinking I can do one of a few things.

1.Copper (which will be hard on the leopard wrasse and tricky with his sandbox)
2.Tank transfer method (leaning this way to rule out Ich)
3. Formalin bath (I'd prefer to avoid, but will consider if it is strongly advised)

I do have a question, I have reef rally on hand...I know you mentioned in the velvet thread that you are starting to prefer it over formalin for velvet. Would it possibly help with resistant flukes?

Also, I'm two days into metroplex treatment as well...wondering if I should abandon that to remedy the gill invaders first.

 

[melypr1985]

1.Copper (which will be hard on the leopard wrasse and tricky with his sandbox)

This won't actually be hard on the leopard. Coppersafe is pretty easy on them. I have one in copper safe right now and have done the same before on others.

 

[ngoodermuth]

What therapeutic level do you use? I have Cupramine on hand, do you think that would be too harsh on them? What do you do about the sandbox? I have extra sand, for TTM I was going to give it a fresh sand box with each transfer. I was worried about copper being absorbed into it and leaching back out.

Regarding what level to use, I was reading a post by Seachem support... the employee said that while .2-.35 works to eradicate ich, you would need more in the range of .4-.5 to kill flukes. I'm not sure about how I feel about levels that high with a leopard, even ramping up very slowly. But, theoretically if I did it would take care of either issue... where TTM will only help with crypto.

I'm just trying to weigh the risk vs. gain here, the fish aren't doing terrible considering, I'd hate to lose any of them :/

 

[125mph]

Regarding what level to use, I was reading a post by Seachem support... the employee said that while .2-.35 works to eradicate ich, you would need more in the range of .4-.5 to kill flukes. I'm not sure about how I feel about levels that high with a leopard, even ramping up very slowly. But, theoretically if I did it would take care of either issue... where TTM will only help with crypto.
:/

I've read the stuff Seachem Tech posts on their forums.. its pretty out there.. meaning I wouldn't believe it.

 

[melypr1985]

What therapeutic level do you use? I have Cupramine on hand, do you think that would be too harsh on them? What do you do about the sandbox? I have extra sand, for TTM I was going to give it a fresh sand box with each transfer. I was worried about copper being absorbed into it and leaching back out.

Regarding what level to use, I was reading a post by Seachem support... the employee said that while .2-.35 works to eradicate ich, you would need more in the range of .4-.5 to kill flukes. I'm not sure about how I feel about levels that high with a leopard, even ramping up very slowly. But, theoretically if I did it would take care of either issue... where TTM will only help with crypto.

I'm just trying to weigh the risk vs. gain here, the fish aren't doing terrible considering, I'd hate to lose any of them :/

A small glass container of sand won't hurt too much. I do this often and do see a little dip, but mostly it levels out quickly.

Therapeutic levels of cupramine are .35-.5. I always suggest keeping it at .5 so you have a little wiggle room built in. Copper does not eradicate flukes at all IME. TTM will solve ich, but you would still need to dose prazi for the flukes no matter which method you choose (ttm or copper).

 

[ngoodermuth]

A small glass container of sand won't hurt too much. I do this often and do see a little dip, but mostly it levels out quickly.

Therapeutic levels of cupramine are .35-.5. I always suggest keeping it at .5 so you have a little wiggle room built in. Copper does not eradicate flukes at all IME. TTM will solve ich, but you would still need to dose prazi for the flukes no matter which method you choose (ttm or copper).

Ok, I've already done two prazi doses so at this point I'm guessing that if it is actually flukes and not ich, they are prazi-resistant. I really don't like messing with formalin but it might be the only choice left.

 

[leahfiish]

Ok, I've already done two prazi doses so at this point I'm guessing that if it is actually flukes and not ich, they are prazi-resistant. I really don't like messing with formalin but it might be the only choice left.

Wouldn't a freshwater dip be able to confirm flukes?

 

[melypr1985]

Ok, I've already done two prazi doses so at this point I'm guessing that if it is actually flukes and not ich, they are prazi-resistant. I really don't like messing with formalin but it might be the only choice left.

Wait a sec. You haven't treated for ich yet right? You can do a freshwater dip to confirm that flukes are still present, but ich will also have them targeting their gills when they scratch.

 

[Humblefish]

Just for the record, there is another way of treating prazi resistant flukes (I should have thought of this before):

Another method that can be used for capsalid monoge- neans is hyposalinity. In one study, 15 g/L (ppt) salinity or lower for two days eliminated juvenile and adult Neoben- edenia melleni. When 15 g/L was maintained for 5 days, the hatching of N. melleni eggs was prevented. It is important to note that some fish species may not tolerate this treatment method.

Source: http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/Monogenean-Parasites-of-Fish.pdf

There are some other alternative treatments for flukes discussed there as well.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Wait a sec. You haven't treated for ich yet right? You can do a freshwater dip to confirm that flukes are still present, but ich will also have them targeting their gills when they scratch.

Yes, no treatment for ich yet because the only symptoms were more indicative of flukes than crypto. But, since prazi isn't doing the trick I'm thinking it's either resistant flukes or incognito ich.

Re: hypo for wrasses, I may be wrong but I thought this was pretty stressful for them in particular? Which is why I was leaning more to tank transfer or copper.

I'm stuck on the best way to move forward because I'm not sure which I'm truly dealing with. I guess I can freshwater dip to figure it out

 

[melypr1985]

I guess I can freshwater dip to figure it out

Best way to figure out which direction to go next.

 

[evolved]

I'll hedge my bets on ich in the gills at this point, but that's just a hunch. A freshwater dip is a good first step.

Running Cu should be fine, but raise the levels SLOWLY. Much slower that what the directions state. I wouldn't worry about the bit of sand; just test for Cu levels in the tank.

 

[ngoodermuth]

I've decided I'm going to go forward with cupramine treatment. Question though, can I continue feeding metroplex while in copper?

 

[Humblefish]

I've decided I'm going to go forward with cupramine treatment. Question though, can I continue feeding metroplex while in copper?

Yes

 

[ngoodermuth]

Again, this flame wrasse is determined to be a special snowflake. I'm at day 2 of cupramine, day 5 metroplex.

The current cupramine level is .1ppm, I'm raising it really slow and only adding one drop, three times a day (rather than 3 drops at once) to raise it .05/day. I noticed today when I put the drops in (mixed in a little cup of tank water and poured into the flow) the flame is spazzing out! At first, I thought I just spooked him but he did it all three times. After the last one, he kind of swam with his tail tensed up and stiff after he was done spazzing. Should I maybe abandon the copper and try TTM instead? The other two wrasses don't seem bothered by it at all... is it really bothering him or is he just being a prima donna?

 

[melypr1985]

That's an odd one. I've never seen a fish react that way to copper.