Trident Sample Line Placement in Sump

[rsumner]

My wife got me a Trident for Father's Day (thanks @Josh Kraft) and I'm struggling to determine the best place to put the sample line with my current sump setup. I have stock Redsea Reefer 525 sump with the addition of a OctoAquatics baffle to split my skimmer compartment into a fuge. I have also removed the stock ATO so I have plenty of room above my socks. Here's a quick drawing showing the flow and equipment placement that I have today.

I have the following complaints about my current setup:

• Apex probes in section 3 have swings in readings to due being downstream from the dosing lines
• Apex probes in section 3 get quite a bit of light from the Kessil H160, so I worry about excess algae growth impacting reliability of readings

I like the following attributes of my setup:

• 
  
• Socks in section 2 are downstream from the dosing lines and catch any precipitant and allow it to better dissolve before hitting the skimmer or return pump
• Powerhead in section 1 helps dissolve 2 part solutions as they are mixed into the water entering the sump from the display
• Dosing lines being so far upstream from the return reduces any chance of precipitant from clogging return lines
• Heater in section 4 being downstream from the Apex probes helps with more reliable temperature readings
• Powerhead in section 4 helps stir any stray detritus from the upstream fuge pushing it into the skimmer and keeps the heater surface clean longer
• Apex probes in section 3 being upstream of Skimmer reduces micro bubbles getting in contact with the probes
• Skimmer outlet in section 4 is pointed to the back right side of the sump reducing micro bubbles hitting the bubble trap in section 5
• I have plenty of room in section 4 to drop in a media reactor if/when I need it

Sooooo...The problem with this setup is that no matter where I put my Trident sample line, it will be downstream of the dosing lines. So, my thoughts were to move the dosing lines to section 4 with the skimmer and heater. After doing this, I could drop the sample line into section 3 immediately following the socks. This particular section of the fuge is fairly hidden from the Kessil light hanging over the fuge section. In fact, one could consider sections 2 and 3 of the Reefer 525 sump to be the same section. I draw them separately due to the fact that the socks being there. My concerns with this approach:

• I could pull quit a bit of undissolved dosing additive into the skimmer pump causing impeller and Venturi alkalinity buildup
• The heater will likely experience a ton of alkalinity buildup
• Concerned about dosing being so close to return section 6 and possibly causing clogging of my Brightwell biobrick or precipitant making it into the return line

To make things even worse: The sample line for the Trident is fairly short and I can't realistically seeing me being able to place it in the dry section of my cabinet (right side). So, I'm going to have to have something built to act as a stand for the Trident so I can place it directly in the wet side of the cabinet with the sump itself. @cromag27, I may be reaching out to you to design a stand for the Trident that will sit in place of the stock ATO hovering over sections 1 and 2 in my diagram above.

Any thoughts for any of you reefers out there who are as obsessive about efficiency in your sump as I am?

 

[glb]

My wife got me a Trident for Father's Day (thanks @Josh Kraft) and I'm struggling to determine the best place to put the sample line with my current sump setup. I have stock Redsea Reefer 525 sump with the addition of a OctoAquatics baffle to split my skimmer compartment into a fuge. I have also removed the stock ATO so I have plenty of room above my socks. Here's a quick drawing showing the flow and equipment placement that I have today.

I have the following complaints about my current setup:

• Apex probes in section 3 have swings in readings to due being downstream from the dosing lines
• Apex probes in section 3 get quite a bit of light from the Kessil H160, so I worry about excess algae growth impacting reliability of readings

I like the following attributes of my setup:

• 
  
• Socks in section 2 are downstream from the dosing lines and catch any precipitant and allow it to better dissolve before hitting the skimmer or return pump
• Powerhead in section 1 helps dissolve 2 part solutions as they are mixed into the water entering the sump from the display
• Dosing lines being so far upstream from the return reduces any chance of precipitant from clogging return lines
• Heater in section 4 being downstream from the Apex probes helps with more reliable temperature readings
• Powerhead in section 4 helps stir any stray detritus from the upstream fuge pushing it into the skimmer and keeps the heater surface clean longer
• Apex probes in section 3 being upstream of Skimmer reduces micro bubbles getting in contact with the probes
• Skimmer outlet in section 4 is pointed to the back right side of the sump reducing micro bubbles hitting the bubble trap in section 5
• I have plenty of room in section 4 to drop in a media reactor if/when I need it

Sooooo...The problem with this setup is that no matter where I put my Trident sample line, it will be downstream of the dosing lines. So, my thoughts were to move the dosing lines to section 4 with the skimmer and heater. After doing this, I could drop the sample line into section 3 immediately following the socks. This particular section of the fuge is fairly hidden from the Kessil light hanging over the fuge section. In fact, one could consider sections 2 and 3 of the Reefer 525 sump to be the same section. I draw them separately due to the fact that the socks being there. My concerns with this approach:

• I could pull quit a bit of undissolved dosing additive into the skimmer pump causing impeller and Venturi alkalinity buildup
• The heater will likely experience a ton of alkalinity buildup
• Concerned about dosing being so close to return section 6 and possibly causing clogging of my Brightwell biobrick or precipitant making it into the return line

To make things even worse: The sample line for the Trident is fairly short and I can't realistically seeing me being able to place it in the dry section of my cabinet (right side). So, I'm going to have to have something built to act as a stand for the Trident so I can place it directly in the wet side of the cabinet with the sump itself. @cromag27, I may be reaching out to you to design a stand for the Trident that will sit in place of the stock ATO hovering over sections 1 and 2 in my diagram above.

Any thoughts for any of you reefers out there who are as obsessive about efficiency in your sump as I am?

That’s a very impressive sump! Here’s my thoughts. Could you dose in the return pump section and put the testing tube in the overflow section? My thinking is that the dosing would be past the probes in the sump and so their readings wouldn’t fluctuate as much. This would also put the dosing past the heater. Plus the stuff you dose will go through the display tank before returning to the sump, leading to a more accurate test site for the trident sample tube. The only concern about dosing in the return pump section is precipitation on the pump itself. Another option would be to dose directly into the display tank. There are some cool looking tubing holders in acrylic that aren’t too visible. If you placed them close to the return pump side or a powerhead, the solutions would mix in the tank. Hope this helps!

 

[Robert_ellis]

I dose right into the return section with no issues. Constant moving water and I never see any discoloration or cloudiness in my dt.

 

[rsumner]

Thanks for the feedback, @glb and @Robert_ellis.

I used to run a media reactor teed off my return line and found that dosing in the return section would drastically increase additive precipitant found in the reactor media. Back in those days, I could reduce this a little with the addition of a powerhead in the return section, but it was never as good as moving it as far upstream of the return as possible. I no longer, however, run a media reactor teed from my return, but I do still run UV and a Neptune Flo meter and I really want to keep that precipitant as low as possible. To be honest, the Neptune Flo meter on my return line is clogged again and returning zero flow to the Apex, so I may just rip that junk out. Wiping down the UV quartz is pretty easy, so I may consider moving dosing back down to the return.

I'd like to minimize the risk of pulling any detritus into the Trident sample lines, so I think I want to keep sampling downstream from the socks. Here's the next iteration that I was thinking about:

You'll notice the following changes:

• Moved dosing to back left wall of return section 6
• Added a small power head to from left wall of return section 6
• Moved ATO optical sensors to front right of section 6
• Moved Biobrick under the socks in section 2 (don't want dosing additive being dumped directly on it)
• Moved probes to the front side of the bubble trap in section 5
• Separated temp probe from the other probes and moved it to the drain section 1
• Decided to take my sample from the same section as the rest of the Apex probes are

It's important to note that my bubble trap section 5 only sees bubbles at the top section since there's a baffle separating section 3 and 5 forcing the flow to go through section 4 where the skimmer is. So, this section of the water should be fine for samples, it should see little micro bubbles.

I do have a concern with sampling and running probes in section 5 this close to the dosing lines in section 6. The Red Sea sump design pulls water under the bubble trap so there's a large chance that water will still be concentrated with additive and skew my probes and my Trident sampling.

GRRRRR!!! I think I need to find a home for the Trident sample tube and Apex probes (ph, salinity, orp) in section 3.

 

[TheHarold]

I suggest you have the trident BEFORE the dosing lines, and out of light.

I encountered a semi-serious issue of the sample line bending upwards and sucking air. That results in VERY off readings. Certainly not fun to wake up at midnight with alarms going off about an alkalinity of 4 and calcium 200, lol!

Other than that, it’s been an absolute dream. If you need a longer clip @rsumner just let me know and I can mail you one

 

[rsumner]

Thanks, @TheHarold. I'll PM you and definitely take you up on the offer for the longer clip. I've settled on the following location for my sample line and relocation of dosing and Apex probes:

I'm not in love with it, but until I can get something that will block the light from my fuge light, I'll have to settle with it. The drain section doesn't get a ton of micro bubbles from the overflow, but it isn't filtered either. I'll follow the Neptune instructions and run it 3 to 4 inches off the bottom and hope for the best. I'm going to try and work on an acrylic insert that will slide under the socks in section 2 and also act as a small baffle to separate section 3 and 2. The purpose of the baffle:

• block light from hitting the socks, the biobrick, the probes, and the sample line that will effectively sit between sections 2 and 3
• prevent fuge chaeto and detritus (from section 3) from pushing back upstream into section 2
• cradle to hold the biobrick off the bottom of the sump

Here's a final diagram showing what I feel it **would** look like in the future. I've added some baffle indicators and yellow arrows to indicate water flow.

 

[TheHarold]

I like that second photo more, having the sample line after the socks. Will definitely help eliminate microbubblez.

 

[User1]

This is actually an interesting question and one I've not thought of. Dang-it. I do not have a trident but now I wonder about the location of draw for when I do catch the Unicorn. @TheHarold you mentioned both of the areas I was going to use and why you wouldn't. The first location was going to be my return and skimmer second. The second was using a pre-drilled dosing location. First may have bubbles the latter near the dosing although I'm currently not dosing anything but do use NoPox from time to time. Far side of sump has the ATO...

Sheesh - I don't think I can win. Side note - nice 3D printed holder. I was wondering if anyone did that yet.

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks for the feedback, @glb and @Robert_ellis.

I used to run a media reactor teed off my return line and found that dosing in the return section would drastically increase additive precipitant found in the reactor media. Back in those days, I could reduce this a little with the addition of a powerhead in the return section, but it was never as good as moving it as far upstream of the return as possible. I no longer, however, run a media reactor teed from my return, but I do still run UV and a Neptune Flo meter and I really want to keep that precipitant as low as possible. To be honest, the Neptune Flo meter on my return line is clogged again and returning zero flow to the Apex, so I may just rip that junk out. Wiping down the UV quartz is pretty easy, so I may consider moving dosing back down to the return.

I'd like to minimize the risk of pulling any detritus into the Trident sample lines, so I think I want to keep sampling downstream from the socks. Here's the next iteration that I was thinking about:

You'll notice the following changes:

• Moved dosing to back left wall of return section 6
• Added a small power head to from left wall of return section 6
• Moved ATO optical sensors to front right of section 6
• Moved Biobrick under the socks in section 2 (don't want dosing additive being dumped directly on it)
• Moved probes to the front side of the bubble trap in section 5
• Separated temp probe from the other probes and moved it to the drain section 1
• Decided to take my sample from the same section as the rest of the Apex probes are

It's important to note that my bubble trap section 5 only sees bubbles at the top section since there's a baffle separating section 3 and 5 forcing the flow to go through section 4 where the skimmer is. So, this section of the water should be fine for samples, it should see little micro bubbles.

I do have a concern with sampling and running probes in section 5 this close to the dosing lines in section 6. The Red Sea sump design pulls water under the bubble trap so there's a large chance that water will still be concentrated with additive and skew my probes and my Trident sampling.

GRRRRR!!! I think I need to find a home for the Trident sample tube and Apex probes (ph, salinity, orp) in section 3.

I would move the 2 part tubes such that they are in the 'return section. 6 - and the sampling probes into section 2. as you show in your picture. If you put the probes in section 3 - realize that the chaeto will affect the results of alk and pH as well.

 

[sharpimage]

What are the odds of the trident testing at the same exact time you are dosing and it affecting the readings? I would assume very small.

Short of that, I would move the probes out of the fuge

 

[rsumner]

What are the odds of the trident testing at the same exact time you are dosing and it affecting the readings? I would assume very small. Short of that, I would move the probes out of the fuge

I dose very small amounts all day long, so the odds are higher than you think. I'm sure I could work around this with some consideration of my dosing profiles and schedule, but I'm trying to kill a few birds with one stone.

I like that second photo more, having the sample line after the socks. Will definitely help eliminate microbubblez.

Yep, now I just need to track down Matt over at Octo and get him the dimensions of the custom baffle that I want.

I would move the 2 part tubes such that they are in the 'return section. 6 - and the sampling probes into section 2. as you show in your picture. If you put the probes in section 3 - realize that the chaeto will affect the results of alk and pH as well.

I've been running the dosing tubes in section 6 overnight and I can't find any traces of precipitant, so I think I may be happy with it running in the return pump section now that I'm not tee'ing a reactor off the return line. I have my apex probes running in section 1 (overflow drain) for now until I can get the new baffle made to formally separate sections 2 and 3. For now, they are actually the same section as this is a stock Red Sea sump.

Thanks again, everyone. I'll be sure to provide an update as soon as I get things up and running. I'm anxious to get the Trident hooked up and running, but I've gotta drill some holes in my cabinet and build a new stand for it in the dry side. So, in other words, I need to redesign the entire dry side of my cabinet just to give the Unicorn a new home.

 

[somethinq else]

Here's a simply reply for you. The trident feed line should be on your return pump section approx 1.5 to 2 inches off the bottom of the sump floor where the sump is the cleanest and can avoid getting any sediments inside the small sample line. When it is taking its measurements from the sample you want it to be as far away from the dosing as possible. It is easier to clog the head of your trident tha. You may think. PM me if you have more trident or Neptune questions

 

[Gablami]

It seems you’ve already figured things out. I just wanted to add what I’ve done since I also have a rsr 525 with the ATO out.

Fuge is right after socks like yours, but at a diagonal (diy baffle). I don’t dose 2 part, but have my carx dripping into fuge. I have my trident sample tube sampling from the first compartment. I figure that is the best location for sampling for parameters in the DT.

Why don’t you just dose two part into your fuge?

Also instead of building something up to place the trident in the dry portion of the stand, you can just cut a piece of glass and lay it over the socks where the ato used to be like below. Just some thoughts...

 

[ca1ore]

I suggest you have the trident BEFORE the dosing lines, and out of light.

I encountered a semi-serious issue of the sample line bending upwards and sucking air. That results in VERY off readings. Certainly not fun to wake up at midnight with alarms going off about an alkalinity of 4 and calcium 200, lol!

Other than that, it’s been an absolute dream. If you need a longer clip @rsumner just let me know and I can mail you one

That’s clever. I’ve had the sample line float to the surface a few times as well. I’ve had to compromise and keep the end closer to the stock clip.

 

[kennytze]

This is what I did to keep suction line in place.

 

[rsumner]

So, I thought I would post a final description and pics of how I am and handling filtration flow through the Red Sea Reefer 525 v2 sump with probes and Trident sampling. First the diagram:

And a description of of the sump compartments:

1. Water drains from the overflow into section one. I have put a single 4"x14" drawstring 200 micron sock directly on the primary drain. This is doing a GREAT job of mechanical filtration keeping the drain section very clean of detritus and microbubbles away from the Apex probes and Trident sample line. This section is also free from the Fuge light bleed so the sock, the probes, and the sample line will stay in the dark.
2. I removed the Red Sea socks and the grey sliding holders. I'm going to run things this way for a while and the next time I pull my sump to clean it, I may completely remove the silicon holding the holders in place so I can fully recoup this real estate.
3. Fuge that is full to the rim with Chaeto lit by a Kessil H160. Fuge baffle is from Octo Aquatics.
4. Skimmer, heater, and Brightwell Biobrick is tucked away into this section. Light bleed from the fuge section is controlled by another custom attachment that Octo Aquatics made for me. Everything in this section stays fairly dark. I still have an empty ball valve sitting here just in case I need to add a temporary reactor at any point, but don't plan on running one on a consistent basis.
5. Bubble trap section (I don't run the sponge/foam that comes with the RSR) also runs my dosing lines so I can get the most agitation within the sump at the time of dosing. I have found this to be the absolutely most effective location in the sump where my Alk is instantly dissolved. My Neptune DOS is dosing at the lowest possible dosing rate using customized profiles vs. the dosing wizard.
6. Neptune optical sensors for the ATO, the clean water line from the RO container, and the return pump live here in harmony. The only component not depicted in the diagram is that I have a 15W UV sterilizer inline between the return pump and display return plumbing. I also have a Neptune Flow sensor installed after the UV and before the 90-elbow going up to the display.

I've been running this way for nearly 3 weeks and I'm loving it. The main benefit that I'm seeing thus far how clean my filter sock is staying now that it is out of the light from the Fuge section and I have zero precipitation issues with dosing.

Final pics of the wet and dry side of the sump are below. I still need to clean up the dosing lines, but almost there.

 

[Timeracer]

I suggest you have the trident BEFORE the dosing lines, and out of light.

I encountered a semi-serious issue of the sample line bending upwards and sucking air. That results in VERY off readings. Certainly not fun to wake up at midnight with alarms going off about an alkalinity of 4 and calcium 200, lol!

Other than that, it’s been an absolute dream. If you need a longer clip @rsumner just let me know and I can mail you one

I could use 2 of the longer clips.

 

[Jakels5253]

This is what I did to keep suction line in place.

What size tubing did you use? Is it hard tubing you bent with heat or is it airline?

 

[mbstallone]

Do you have any long sample line holders available? Would love to get one.