Triton and time delay before testing

[Squamosa]

Hi Randy, I have a question or two for you, if I may.

We have finally had the Triton test become available to us here in Australia. However, the distributors are ~5200 km away from us, here in the most isolated capital city in the world viz Perth.

We have been told to send the samples to them (which we have done) and then they will be couriered out to Germany for testing, this brings with it many problems.

The distance and lack of express postal service means that realistically our samples will be in transit for anything up to 15 days, possibly longer before testing. It being summertime here now and winter in Europe the samples will additionally be exposed to a temperature range of 0 degrees C to +40 degrees C.

Our reef systems are heavily carbon dosed with presumably a large bacteria population in the water column and so my questions...

Would the degradation of the water over this time period and the die off of bacteria have an impact on the test results, in so far that the minute quantities of, in particular the heavy metals that may be "bound" up in the bacteria, would then be released back into the sample water i.e. copper, zinc and others and if indeed such thinking on our part has any relevance?

Would the temperature extremes have any relevance to the break down of the bacteria or possibly affect the stability of the polypropylene composition of the 'Falcon' tube sample holders?

I seem to recall that this issue may have cropped up in the past with regards to the test, however, I believe the time periods that those samples were in transit for, were a lot less.

Thanks,
Tony

 

[matt_84]

I've been flying to perth at least twice a year.. sometimes more.
I could always transport some back over to the east side of the country for you next time I'm making the journey.. but it probably wont be for a while now though. Came back in october.

 

[Squamosa]

I've been flying to perth at least twice a year.. sometimes more.
I could always transport some back over to the east side of the country for you next time I'm making the journey.. but it probably wont be for a while now though. Came back in october.

Thanks for your kind offer Matt. However, to make this a viable option for regular testing, an alternative system has to be arranged for postage.

I could of course, go out of 'official' channels and have a private courier company deliver my sample to Triton for testing in three days, but this would make the cost of one Triton test equate to ~AU$210 (prices would go down with more people coming on board but I don't see that happening).

Cheers

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I agree that there is a concern, even for people from the US and Europe, as to what is happening to the samples with respect to bacterial growth or death.

Despite asking, I've never gotten a good description of how the samples are treated and whether suspended bacteria and very fine particles actually get detected or not. Presumably, they do not do anything to get bacteria off the sides of the container (since they do not acidify the samples), but I also do not know how much that might impact the results. So bacteria may (or may not) impact results by dying and breaking open, or alternatively, growing and taking up elements.

I do not think the tubes themselves are a source of contaminants, since I expect Triton would have tested that before picking them, but I've not seen such tests. Polypropylene can be a pretty clean material.

 

[Squamosa]

I agree that there is a concern, even for people from the US and Europe, as to what is happening to the samples with respect to bacterial growth or death.

Despite asking, I've never gotten a good description of how the samples are treated and whether suspended bacteria and very fine particles actually get detected or not. Presumably, they do not do anything to get bacteria off the sides of the container (since they do not acidify the samples), but I also do not know how much that might impact the results. So bacteria may (or may not) impact results by dying and breaking open, or alternatively, growing and taking up elements.

I do not think the tubes themselves are a source of contaminants, since I expect Triton would have tested that before picking them, but I've not seen such tests. Polypropylene can be a pretty clean material.

Thank you Randy.
It is a concern of ours and you make good points!
I also failed to take into account that bacteria might indeed grow and thrive for awhile, thus taking up nutrients.

Lets see what the results show.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

You're welcome.

Good luck!

 

[Triggreef]

Might be worth posting in the triton forum to see their response. I know I've read similar concerns that were dispelled but I don't remember the specifics.

I'd imagine they could easily do a controlled experiment using the same water, testing one sample immediately and waiting a month to test the other sample. Then compare the results. Could even subject the latter to large temperature variations as well. If I were triton its run tests like that just to put everyone's mind at ease.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Here's a cut and paste from my answer is a previous discussion on this topic:

FWIW, my biggest concern with trace elements continues to be the issues relating to bacteria and how they are counted or not counted. Regardless of the answer, I'm not sure how one should interpret the results for those biological elements (such as iron) which may be mostly in organisms, especially since the amount in the bacteria may change during the collection of the sample and the testing.

My understanding from what Ehsan said is that they were not part of the sample tested.

Acidification might kill bacteria and release trace elements. Not acidifying might allow continued growth and sequestration of trace elements. Either way, if the bacteria are not tested, it is a confounding issue. If they are part of the tested sample, the results may not be reflective of the "in water" concentrations.

I agree that evaluating standards is appropriate, as long as they fit the requirements of the expected analytical process. I just don't know what those are at the moment.

which is from:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/reefs-dot-com-article-on-triton-testing.193060/#post-2217992

 

[Squamosa]

Might be worth posting in the triton forum to see their response. I know I've read similar concerns that were dispelled but I don't remember the specifics.

I'd imagine they could easily do a controlled experiment using the same water, testing one sample immediately and waiting a month to test the other sample. Then compare the results. Could even subject the latter to large temperature variations as well. If I were triton its run tests like that just to put everyone's mind at ease.

Maybe they have, but they won't publish the results because, you know.........!

 

[Squamosa]

The results are in and the metals are worrying..high lead and aluminium!

I don't do water changes (haven't done more than 20% total change in almost 2 years) and so the accumulation of these metals is worrying.

The only way they could enter the system is from the food (spectrum pellets, flake and frozen mysis) or ASW mix along the way (Red Sea and Tropic Marin). RO/DI water is used to top up.

Some questions:
Are these levels high or even dangerous, bearing in mind that they may accumulate even further?
I have started Rowaphos, would the GFO absorb these metals?
Or is the only option doing a large water change?

Thanks for reading!

 

[twilliard]

Honestly I see no worries in your picture. Your NA is low for sure.

Randy makes good points.
What I do is take all my tests (I get them back in about a week and a half) and average them.
As long as you treat is as a whole and not an individual test these numbers are quite accurate.

 

[rboutin111]

Following. I just sent in my first test.

 

[slicko]

I just sent (1 week ago) test from Adelaide SA, From what i understand from another person close to Eshan is that he is attempting to move to aus or nz? and hoping to bring 1 machine? i would love to get on this method with the full elemnetz kit.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The results are in and the metals are worrying..high lead and aluminium!

I don't do water changes (haven't done more than 20% total change in almost 2 years) and so the accumulation of these metals is worrying.

The only way they could enter the system is from the food (spectrum pellets, flake and frozen mysis) or ASW mix along the way (Red Sea and Tropic Marin). RO/DI water is used to top up.

Some questions:
Are these levels high or even dangerous, bearing in mind that they may accumulate even further?
I have started Rowaphos, would the GFO absorb these metals?
Or is the only option doing a large water change?

Thanks for reading!

When you say the only way they could enter is such and such, is that because you have carefully considered other sources?

You use no solid media for phosphate binding or denitriification?
There is no metal above the tank that might be corroded and flaking or dripping?
No metal parts of any kind in the water?

FWIW, elevated aluminum is not uncommon, and, IME, short term effects don't kick in at the levels you have (but I'm not sure on long term effects). It took 500 ppb aluminum in my tests to close corals, while 50 ppb did not.

Lead, OTOH, is quite uncommon to see elevated in a Triton test, and I've not seen good data on what levels are a problem.

As mentioned, the salinity looks to be very low, based on the very low sodium. Is that intentional?

 

[Squamosa]

When you say the only way they could enter is such and such, is that because you have carefully considered other sources? I have and the concentrations of metals, especially lead, is baffling

You use no solid media for phosphate binding or denitriification? The only media used and only for the last 2 weeks is GFO (Rowaphos)
There is no metal above the tank that might be corroded and flaking or dripping? None (checked)
No metal parts of any kind in the water? None (checked)

FWIW, elevated aluminum is not uncommon, and, IME, short term effects don't kick in at the levels you have (but I'm not sure on long term effects). It took 500 ppb aluminum in my tests to close corals, while 50 ppb did not.

Lead, OTOH, is quite uncommon to see elevated in a Triton test, and I've not seen good data on what levels are a problem. The only way I can see it having entered the system is through the frozen Mysis I feed, as it is a non brand name product from China used to feed my sea horses (the systems are linked) and is fed every day in multiple quantities. This product has been discarded by myself from today!

As mentioned, the salinity looks to be very low, based on the very low sodium. Is that intentional? No, it is not, my aggressive wet skimming over months has taken a toll on the salinity and it is being raised very slowly now

 

[Squamosa]

Having just read your article 'Reef aquaria with low soluble metals' and looked at 'Table 6.Cumulative amount of certain metals added to a reef aquarium over the course of a year using a CaCO3/CO2 reactor', has made me think that this could also be a possible source of the metal contamination.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Having just read your article 'Reef aquaria with low soluble metals' and looked at 'Table 6.Cumulative amount of certain metals added to a reef aquarium over the course of a year using a CaCO3/CO2 reactor', has made me think that this could also be a possible source of the metal contamination.

Yes, that could be.