Tropic Marin All for Reef supplement

[quaker]

This week I switched from using BRS alkalinity and Calcium supplement to All for Reef. Anyone have experience with starting to use this? I have used the BRS supplements for the last year and a half and my parameters have been pretty stable. I switched because despite the expense, the premixed single additive saves time. I have a 155 gallon mixed reef aquarium. The alkalinity is usually around 9 with the BRS supplements but is falling since the switch to 7.8-8.0. I am following the manufacturer's direction for initiating All for Reef, which is 5 mls per 26 gallon of aquarium water. They suggest increasing weekly by 2.5 mls/26 gallon, but I am a little nervous about the drop in alkalinity and pH down to 7.8, so I was thinking I would accelerate the dosing adjustments, and maybe increase it by 2.5 mls/26 gallon every other day until the alkalinity and pH show an upward trend. Anyone suggestion by anyone who has used All for Reef is much appreciated.

 

[Juka087]

This week I switched from using BRS alkalinity and Calcium supplement to All for Reef. Anyone have experience with starting to use this? I have used the BRS supplements for the last year and a half and my parameters have been pretty stable. I switched because despite the expense, the premixed single additive saves time. I have a 155 gallon mixed reef aquarium. The alkalinity is usually around 9 with the BRS supplements but is falling since the switch to 7.8-8.0. I am following the manufacturer's direction for initiating All for Reef, which is 5 mls per 26 gallon of aquarium water. They suggest increasing weekly by 2.5 mls/26 gallon, but I am a little nervous about the drop in alkalinity and pH down to 7.8, so I was thinking I would accelerate the dosing adjustments, and maybe increase it by 2.5 mls/26 gallon every other day until the alkalinity and pH show an upward trend. Anyone suggestion by anyone who has used All for Reef is much appreciated.

Bump bump

 

[Bryan68]

I'm using all-for-reef, and don't have a bunch of coral, basically feeding coraline algae. Total volume is 180 gallon and I'm adding 30 ml per day and it's not keeping up. Not much help, sorry about that. I will increase to 40 ml and see how it goes.

 

[quaker]

I'm using all-for-reef, and don't have a bunch of coral, basically feeding coraline algae. Total volume is 180 gallon and I'm adding 30 ml per day and it's not keeping up. Not much help, sorry about that. I will increase to 40 ml and see how it goes.

Thanks for your reply! How long have you been using All for Reef?

 

[Bryan68]

Thanks for your reply! How long have you been using All for Reef?

About three months.

 

[quaker]

I started with 30 mls/day 3 days ago and have already increased it to 60 mls, trying to maintain alkalinity above 8.

 

[ichthyoid]

Switching from a strictly chemical 2 part dosing mechanism to the All for Reef, which adds a biological component, presents some unique issues, I believe. You need to give the bacteria time to adapt to feeding on All for Reef. That’s what generates the alkalinity from the product.

Flipping switches (ie- fast changes) is never good in a reef, imo. I would rather have gradually reduced the 2 part, while gradually increasing the All for Reef. Aiming to keep alkalinity stable along the way.

If you email Lou Ekus-VP at Tropic Marin USA, he is pretty responsive. He is a wealth of knowledge.

 

[Jonify]

In my experience, switching to All for Reef has resulted in a much more stable tank ... it uses Calcium Formate as the buffer (so no spikes in pH, little precipitation), but the alkalinity takes between 12-24 hours to show up as testable in your tank. So give it a little time.

All for Reef has several more foundational and trace elements in it than the BRS 2-part mix, so it requires more RO to bring it into solution for the All for Reef mix, and more dosing volume with each dose of course, so you'll be dosing a little more of All for Reef than you were the BRS. My recommendation is to test alkalinity every day, and then every 2 days, adjust your dose a tiny bit until you get alkalinity up to where you want and stable.

If your calcium is way off, you can dose more calcium specifically, but I wouldn't touch it if it's within range. The calcium drop associated with alkalinity uptake is hardly detectable (I think it's like 20ppm calcium consumed for every 2.8 dKH consumed), so calcium is something you'll have to measure over several weeks to figure out how it's actually being consumed, meaning alkalinity is the best target for daily/weekly adjustments of All for Reef. Especially if you're doing regular water changes. In fact, with regular water changes, once you get you to your target alkalinity, you won't need to adjust the All for Reef dose much.

You may find alkalinity is depleted quicker than calcium (again, tested over several weeks, not days), in which case you should dose sodium bicarbonate (pure baking soda mixed with RO) to gradually get alk back in line with calcium. [Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda which is readily available) has a similar mechanism to calcium formate (which is less readily available), as I understand it, in the way it adjusts alkalinity]. That should be a rare adjustment, like every month or two. You could dose sodium carbonate for alkalinity adjustments (which is the element in most commercial alkalinity buffers, like Red Sea Foundation B), but you risk excess precipitation doing that, depending on the age of your tank, so I wouldn't. One less thing to worry about.

 

[quaker]

In my experience, switching to All for Reef has resulted in a much more stable tank ... it uses Calcium Formate as the buffer (so no spikes in pH, little precipitation), but the alkalinity takes between 12-24 hours to show up as testable in your tank. So give it a little time.

All for Reef has several more foundational and trace elements in it than the BRS 2-part mix, so it requires more RO to bring it into solution for the All for Reef mix, and more dosing volume with each dose of course, so you'll be dosing a little more of All for Reef than you were the BRS. My recommendation is to test alkalinity every day, and then every 2 days, adjust your dose a tiny bit until you get alkalinity up to where you want and stable.

If your calcium is way off, you can dose more calcium specifically, but I wouldn't touch it if it's within range. The calcium drop associated with alkalinity uptake is hardly detectable (I think it's like 20ppm calcium consumed for every 2.8 dKH consumed), so calcium is something you'll have to measure over several weeks to figure out how it's actually being consumed, meaning alkalinity is the best target for daily/weekly adjustments of All for Reef. Especially if you're doing regular water changes. In fact, with regular water changes, once you get you to your target alkalinity, you won't need to adjust the All for Reef dose much.

You may find alkalinity is depleted quicker than calcium (again, tested over several weeks, not days), in which case you should dose sodium bicarbonate (pure baking soda mixed with RO) to gradually get alk back in line with calcium. [Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda which is readily available) has a similar mechanism to calcium formate (which is less readily available), as I understand it, in the way it adjusts alkalinity]. That should be a rare adjustment, like every month or two. You could dose sodium carbonate for alkalinity adjustments (which is the element in most commercial alkalinity buffers, like Red Sea Foundation B), but you risk excess precipitation doing that, depending on the age of your tank, so I wouldn't. One less thing to worry about.

Thank you Ichthyoid and Jonify for your comments, advice, and recommendations. I am only 4 days into use of this product, but I have been testing alkalinity every day. I haven't seen any negative reviews yet. I have learned that go slow is the mantra with my reef aquarium, Will see how things progress over the next few days and weeks and update this post.

 

[ADAM]

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but from my endeavors with AfR you will not get the pH bump that is seen with other Ca Alk supplements. I believe that difference is part of the reason the supplement can contain both Ca and Alk components in the same mixture.

 

[Jonify]

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but from my endeavors with AfR you will not get the pH bump that is seen with other Ca Alk supplements. I believe that difference is part of the reason the supplement can contain both Ca and Alk components in the same mixture.

Yes, you won't get an immediate bump, but pH will gradually increase if you're increasing your alkalinity levels.

 

[ichthyoid]

The All for Reef calcium is in the form of calcium formate. The formate is an organic molecule/ion (also called a ligand) which is metabolized by specific bacteria that provide an enzyme to make it happen. If it weren’t for the bacteria & their enzyme, this reaction either would not happen, or would be extraordinarily slow. The enzyme acts to kick off the reaction, but otherwise doesn’t contribute anything chemically.

A calcium ion, two hydroxide ions and two molecules of carbon dioxide are released in the overall reaction.

Ca+(COOH-)2 + O2 = Ca+ + 2OH- + 2CO2

As the process releases the hydroxide/alkalinity, that then acts to resist a drop in pH by capturing free hydrogen ions in the aquarium water. Hydrogen ions are what we actually measure for pH. The more free hydrogen ions, the lower the pH.

The way pH is kept high is when a hydroxide ion (-OH) reacts with a free hydrogen ion (H+), to form a molecule of water (H2O), which of course is neutral.

OH- + H+ = H2O

This is also a much lower energy yielding reaction than most other forms of carbon based molecules provide. Because of that, we don’t see large growths of bacteria as you sometimes get from other types of ‘carbon dosing’ (eg- bacterial strings or clumping in the gravel). There is also some evidence that bacteria which are produced from this process, may contribute directly to coral nutrition. If so, it’s a win, win, win!

 

[quaker]

The All for Reef calcium is in the form of calcium formate. The formate is an organic molecule/ion (also called a ligand) which is metabolized by specific bacteria that provide an enzyme to make it happen. If it weren’t for the bacteria & their enzyme, this reaction either would not happen, or would be extraordinarily slow. The enzyme acts to kick off the reaction, but otherwise doesn’t contribute anything chemically.

A calcium ion, two hydroxide ions and two molecules of carbon dioxide are released in the overall reaction.

Ca+(COOH-)2 + O2 = Ca+ + 2OH- + 2CO2

As the process releases the hydroxide/alkalinity, that then acts to resist a drop in pH by capturing free hydrogen ions in the aquarium water. Hydrogen ions are what we actually measure for pH. The more free hydrogen ions, the lower the pH.

The way pH is kept high is when a hydroxide ion (-OH) reacts with a free hydrogen ion (H+), to form a molecule of water (H2O), which of course is neutral.

OH- + H+ = H2O

This is also a much lower energy yielding reaction than most other forms of carbon based molecules provide. Because of that, we don’t see large growths of bacteria as you sometimes get from other types of ‘carbon dosing’ (eg- bacterial strings or clumping in the gravel). There is also some evidence that bacteria which are produced from this process, may contribute directly to coral nutrition. If so, it’s a win, win, win!

Thank you Ichthyoid for taking the time to explain how AFR works.

 

[ichthyoid]

Edit:

The reaction above should show a +2 charge on calcium -mea culpa

Ca++(COOH-)2 + O2 = Ca++ + 2OH- + 2CO2

 

[AZReef13]

In my experience, switching to All for Reef has resulted in a much more stable tank ... it uses Calcium Formate as the buffer (so no spikes in pH, little precipitation), but the alkalinity takes between 12-24 hours to show up as testable in your tank. So give it a little time.

All for Reef has several more foundational and trace elements in it than the BRS 2-part mix, so it requires more RO to bring it into solution for the All for Reef mix, and more dosing volume with each dose of course, so you'll be dosing a little more of All for Reef than you were the BRS. My recommendation is to test alkalinity every day, and then every 2 days, adjust your dose a tiny bit until you get alkalinity up to where you want and stable.

If your calcium is way off, you can dose more calcium specifically, but I wouldn't touch it if it's within range. The calcium drop associated with alkalinity uptake is hardly detectable (I think it's like 20ppm calcium consumed for every 2.8 dKH consumed), so calcium is something you'll have to measure over several weeks to figure out how it's actually being consumed, meaning alkalinity is the best target for daily/weekly adjustments of All for Reef. Especially if you're doing regular water changes. In fact, with regular water changes, once you get you to your target alkalinity, you won't need to adjust the All for Reef dose much.

You may find alkalinity is depleted quicker than calcium (again, tested over several weeks, not days), in which case you should dose sodium bicarbonate (pure baking soda mixed with RO) to gradually get alk back in line with calcium. [Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda which is readily available) has a similar mechanism to calcium formate (which is less readily available), as I understand it, in the way it adjusts alkalinity]. That should be a rare adjustment, like every month or two. You could dose sodium carbonate for alkalinity adjustments (which is the element in most commercial alkalinity buffers, like Red Sea Foundation B), but you risk excess precipitation doing that, depending on the age of your tank, so I wouldn't. One less thing to worry about.

Glad i found your reply here. I just switched my tank about a week ago. I noticed a drop in Mag & Cal, but Alk went up a bit,

Alk 8.9 9.3
CA 420 390
Mag 1320 1230

I started with a 6 MLS/Day

If I understand what you are saying I should monitor ALK a few more days then adjust to maintain ALK. if I do need more CA or Mag, how do I do this?

 

[Waynerock]

I love using AFR! I am dosing 23 ml a day in my tank which is only 65 gal but stuffed with corals. Mag and Cal stays rock solid but every 3 days I need to dose 6-9 ml of Alk from my old 2 part. It goes from 9 to 8.5-8.3. I dont mind dosing extra at all. Before I had 2 X1 dosers dosing Reef Fusion part 1&2 every day. It costs me about 33 dollars every 50 days or so and its worth it. Especially when I only have to worry about I dosing pump and AFR has so much more in it besides alk,cal,and mag. It is loaded with trace too and one less thing to worry about dosing or overdosing.

 

[AZReef13]

I love using AFR! I am dosing 23 ml a day in my tank which is only 65 gal but stuffed with corals. Mag and Cal stays rock solid but every 3 days I need to dose 6-9 ml of Alk from my old 2 part. It goes from 9 to 8.5-8.3. I dont mind dosing extra at all. Before I had 2 X1 dosers dosing Reef Fusion part 1&2 every day. It costs me about 33 dollars every 50 days or so and its worth it. Especially when I only have to worry about I dosing pump and AFR has so much more in it besides alk,cal,and mag. It is loaded with trace too and one less thing to worry about dosing or overdosing.

Thanks for the Info, will keep monitoring and add anything if needed.

 

[ichthyoid]

I love using AFR! I am dosing 23 ml a day in my tank which is only 65 gal but stuffed with corals. Mag and Cal stays rock solid but every 3 days I need to dose 6-9 ml of Alk from my old 2 part. It goes from 9 to 8.5-8.3. I dont mind dosing extra at all. Before I had 2 X1 dosers dosing Reef Fusion part 1&2 every day. It costs me about 33 dollars every 50 days or so and its worth it. Especially when I only have to worry about I dosing pump and AFR has so much more in it besides alk,cal,and mag. It is loaded with trace too and one less thing to worry about dosing or overdosing.

@Waynerock, just curious to know how long you have been dosing AFR?

Also, how old is your reef?

My questions are based on my understanding that AFR will eventually supply a balance of calcium & alkalinity.

If the system is new, it will usually consume alkalinity in excess to calcium.

Also, my understanding is that we are to balance calcium/alkalinity prior to the change to AFR. Otherwise, you end up dosing alk in an effort to ‘catch up’.

 

[AZReef13]

@Waynerock, just curious to know how long you have been dosing AFR?

Also, how old is your reef?

My questions are based on my understanding that AFR will eventually supply a balance of calcium & alkalinity.

If the system is new, it will usually consume alkalinity in excess to calcium.

Also, my understanding is that we are to balance calcium/alkalinity prior to the change to AFR. Otherwise, you end up dosing alk in an effort to ‘catch up’.

Thanks, my tank is 3yrs, Only for one week. I did that prior to switching got Alk 8.9 and CA was 420... Started with 6mls daily. Haven't changed dose yet. After I switched these where the numbers I got, Alk 9.3, CA 390..

 

[Waynerock]

@Waynerock, just curious to know how long you have been dosing AFR?

Also, how old is your reef?

My questions are based on my understanding that AFR will eventually supply a balance of calcium & alkalinity.

If the system is new, it will usually consume alkalinity in excess to calcium.

Also, my understanding is that we are to balance calcium/alkalinity prior to the change to AFR. Otherwise, you end up dosing alk in an effort to ‘catch up’.

The tank itself is a year and half old but all the rock is from a previous tank and all from the ocean with the exception of two pieces and about 3 years old. ARF balances mag and cal very well but with all the growth I have had in the last 8 months it’s using a wee bit of Alk to the point I have to correct a .5-.7 drop every 4-5 days. The SPS growth lately has been substantial. I have been dosing since dec and when I started dosing I got all 3 right where I wanted them ( cal 450, Alk 9, mag at 1440) and like I said has done well. I believe I remember in a video from TM that said that you will prob have to dose Alk and or cal to catch up periodically when I was researching AFR before starting. I don’t mind hand dosing 7ml or so of Alk every week or so it’s still worth it. I test Alk daily with Hanna at the exact time every morning and have a pretty solid trend where as I test cal and mag weekly and it’s usually withinn 10-20 points which could be the test kit. My tank is loaded and sucks up cal mag and Alk like crazy as well as no3 and po4 to the point where it’s hard to keep nutrients up and I dose Red Sea AB+ daily. Here is what it looks like and with he stability AFR gives me everything is happy and I have not had any losses since A goni died in November.