Tropic Marin Pro Reef Salt Alkalinity 5.2 dKH

[Gaspipe]

You shouldn't feel bad about it, seriously... The other part to reporting the issue, even if you opt not to have them fix it for you, is giving them data points to check batches and see what went wrong and where so they can improve their process which allows them to have something like this happen less frequently. It's for them as much as it is for you and your future with their product.

Just reached out to him. Quality control is a good point.

 

[JNalley]

Just reached out to him. Quality control is a good point.

something that just popped into my head, and I'm sure would be interesting to know, is what your pH is. Optimal pH is 8.3 I think, and there is a relationship between Alk and pH

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

something that just popped into my head, and I'm sure would be interesting to know, is what your pH is. Optimal pH is 8.3 I think, and there is a relationship between Alk and pH

No, that is not a reason he (or anyone) has low alk.

pH, alk, and CO2 are related mathematically. Know one and you know the third.

But low pH does not "cause" low alkalinity.

 

[JNalley]

No, that is not a reason he (or anyone) has low alk.

pH, alk, and CO2 are related mathematically. Know one and you know the third.

But low pH does not "cause" low alkalinity.

I didn't say it was a reason, just that a relationship exists (mathematical or otherwise), but he did not list his pH in his parameters, and I said I would be interested to see what it is with an Alk that low. I know low pH doesn't "cause" low Alk, but if one parameter is off, maybe others are off too... and perhaps instead of Baking Soda he should be using Soda Ash (if his pH is also low).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I didn't say it was a reason, just that a relationship exists (mathematical or otherwise), but he did not list his pH in his parameters, and I said I would be interested to see what it is with an Alk that low. I know low pH doesn't "cause" low Alk, but if one parameter is off, maybe others are off too... and perhaps instead of Baking Soda he should be using Soda Ash (if his pH is also low).

All other things being equal, seawater at an alk of 7 dKH and pH 8.2 will have a pH of 8.05 at an alk of 5 dKH.

 

[JNalley]

All other things being equal, seawater at an alk of 7 dKH and pH 8.2 will have a pH of 8.05 at an alk of 5 dKH.

Can you say for certain, 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt that all other things ARE equal right now?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Can you say for certain, 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt that all other things ARE equal right now?

What? What are you asking? What if I answered yes? lol

If someone has low alk, it is not ever caused by low pH. This thread is about a batch of salt with low alkalinity. The pH did not cause the low alk. The low alk may contribute to low pH, but the pH need not be low even at 5 dKH.

If we want to discuss causes of low pH, sure, low alk contributes to lower pH and high alk contributes to higher pH.

In the range of alk that reefers actually experience, say, 5 dKH to 14 dKH, the range of effect that has on pH is exactly 0.45 pH units. It's not at all insignificant, but unless you are willing to adjust alkalinity specifically to cause pH changes, it is not an especially useful tool.

What most reefers are much more interested in is controlling the CO2 level, and that allows you to adjust most any reef aquarium pH up or down (at any normal alk level), by modifying the CO2 level.

 

[JNalley]

What? What are you asking? What if I answered yes? lol

If someone has low alk, it is not ever caused by low pH. This thread is about a batch of salt with low alkalinity. The pH did not cause the low alk. The low alk may contribute to low pH, but the pH need not be low even at 5 dKH.

If we want to discuss causes of low pH, sure, low alk contributes to lower pH and high alk contributes to higher pH.

In the range of alk that reefers actually experience, say, 5 dKH to 14 dKH, the range of effect that has on pH is exactly 0.45 pH units. It's not at all insignificant, but unless you are willing to adjust alkalinity specifically to cause pH changes, it is not an especially useful tool.

What most reefers are much more interested in is controlling the CO2 level, and that allows you to adjust most any reef aquarium pH up or down (at any normal alk level), by modifying the CO2 level.

Yes, we're assuming it's a batch of salt with low alkalinity, extremely low alkalinity. However, it's ALWAYS been low, his testing started off at 4.7 dKH and he has never tested before that. The salt (if we put trust in the manufacturer) is SUPPOSED to mix at 7dKH @35ppt. Your assumption is that it's just a batch that has mixed low, and to be candid, that was my assumption as well, however, since we have no other data points (previous buckets/batches of salt mixed by this OP) do we continue down the road of "It's a bad batch of salt" and just wait? Or do we trust in a known brand and start to consider other avenues? Perhaps the input water is bad in some way. The only readings we have gotten here are dKH, Nitrate, Phosphate, Salinity, and Temp. I'm asking you if that is enough to conclude that the ONLY issue here is low alkalinity in the salt mix itself. While the OP waits on a response from Lou, is it not prudent and proactive even to get some of the other parameters to see if there's something else amiss here? What if there's chlorine in the input water? Would that not lower both the pH and Alk? I'm honestly just trying to help the OP here, and it feels like you're more interested in criticizing my questions rather than doing the same. If that's not the case, then so be it, but you've already assumed that I believe the cause of low alk is because pH is also low, and I never made that assumption, I simply asked a question...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Yes, we're assuming it's a batch of salt with low alkalinity, extremely low alkalinity. However, it's ALWAYS been low, his testing started off at 4.7 dKH and he has never tested before that. The salt (if we put trust in the manufacturer) is SUPPOSED to mix at 7dKH @35ppt. Your assumption is that it's just a batch that has mixed low, and to be candid, that was my assumption as well, however, since we have no other data points (previous buckets/batches of salt mixed by this OP) do we continue down the road of "It's a bad batch of salt" and just wait? Or do we trust in a known brand and start to consider other avenues? Perhaps the input water is bad in some way. The only readings we have gotten here are dKH, Nitrate, Phosphate, Salinity, and Temp. I'm asking you if that is enough to conclude that the ONLY issue here is low alkalinity in the salt mix itself. While the OP waits on a response from Lou, is it not prudent and proactive even to get some of the other parameters to see if there's something else amiss here? What if there's chlorine in the input water? Would that not lower both the pH and Alk? I'm honestly just trying to help the OP here, and it feels like you're more interested in criticizing my questions rather than doing the same. If that's not the case, then so be it, but you've already assumed that I believe the cause of low alk is because pH is also low, and I never made that assumption, I simply asked a question...

I do not recall making any assumptions about the batch or what caused it. Could be many things.

 

[JNalley]

This thread is about a batch of salt with low alkalinity.

I do not recall making any assumptions about the batch or what caused it. Could be many things.

The assumption being made is that the salt itself is low. Which I said in a previous post that we may have all jumped to that conclusion, but after I thought about it for a little bit, I don't think we have enough data to actually draw that conclusion, so I asked the OP what his pH was, and you assumed I thought that a low pH indicates a low Alk, which I do not. The two are related, but one does not cause the other. However, if BOTH are low, it could indicate something else, such as Chlorine in the water, or something else gone wrong.

 

[Gaspipe]

I don't have a way to measure pH unfortunately. I would have thought that because this is a new batch of saltwater created and not measuring from my tank the numbers should have a range.

 

[JNalley]

I don't have a way to measure pH unfortunately. I would have thought that because this is a new batch of saltwater created and not measuring from my tank the numbers should have a range.

What is the input water like? Is it straight tap water? distilled water? RO or RO/DI water? if it's RO/DI water, when was the last time you changed out thefilters and resin? If I was you I'd definitely get a pH test kit because pH is important, and testing your input water is sometimes just as important as testing your output water.

 

[Gaspipe]

What is the input water like? Is it straight tap water? distilled water? RO or RO/DI water? if it's RO/DI water, when was the last time you changed out thefilters and resin? If I was you I'd definitely get a pH test kit because pH is important, and testing your input water is sometimes just as important as testing your output water.

1. So yesterday I drained 99% of the SW I had in my bin.
2. I created new RODI water using BRS 4 Stage. TDS are 0.
   1. The filters and the TP Pro Reef Salt bucket were purchased at same time, so the filters have not been through a single bucket yet. And TDS going into the RODI is 3 or 4, as mentioned a 0 exiting.
3. I leave the circulating pump on 24 hours, and add salt slowly.
4. Today I used my Hanna Salinity Tester Pen HI98319 and Hanna HI772 to measure Alkalinity.

I will have to come to some terms for a pH probe in DT. Not sure I want a controller perhaps I will grab a Hanna pen for that as well.

 

[homer1475]

Umm, just a note here that caught my eye when reading the thread...

The OP says when he uses the reagent, it never fills the syringe only the tip. While I do not use the tip, I wonder if he has air leaking in? I know the tip is full, but shouldn't the reagent be in the syringe some?

OP try removing the tip, pull up some reagent, push the plunger back down to 1ml, and thats where the reagent should be. Then test with that syringe.

Also have you shaken the bucket, rolled it around to mix the salt up? BRS actually did an investigates video, and stratification(elements settling) is a real thing.

 

[homer1475]

FYI if he was using too much reagent(trying to get rid of the air bubble) his results would be higher(more reagent), not lower.

 

[Lou Ekus]

I will have to come to some terms for a pH probe in DT. Not sure I want a controller perhaps I will grab a Hanna pen for that as well.

Thanks for your posts about this. Let me try to help.

First, let me explain that our office has been closed for the holidays and so I have not been getting my forum alerts as I usually do. That is why I have not responded to the questions put to me yet on this thread.

I also want to say, that you for sending the PM to me. That is always a better way to get to me rather than in an open thread that I might miss. For now, I will respond here for everyone else that is following along on this thread.

Oh, one last thing before I address your alkalinity questions directly...For everyone here on this forum...the BEST way to get me to step in an help if you are having an issue, is to either email me directly at [email protected] or to give me a call in the office at 413-367-0101. The reason I say this is NOT to avoid forums. As you have seen, I am quite active. It is because it is not easy, or even appropriate by R2R guidelines, for me to be doing lots of Tropic Marin product support here on the threads. So please try to contact me directly with specific product issues where I can help you best.

Now on to your specific alkalinity question... I am a big fan of Hanna Checkers. However, we have had a number of instances where they have pointed to low alkalinity, in freshly mixed salt water, that turned out to be not correct. I don't know why this happens. There could be a number of reasons, and I am not pointing a finger either to the Hanna checker directly or to you as the user. I'm just stating that I have seen this to be the case more than once. In those cases, samples of salt, directly from the customer, proved to be in the normal alkalinity range. More importantly, it turned out that the salinity of some of the systems being maintained, in those instances, were in the high range as a result of the checking over the past period of time.

I am not saying that this is the case on your instance. However, the last 4 times I have had this complaint come into the office, and was able to get samples of salt from the customer to check the alkalinity, this has been the case. So I want to just say... I would approach this situation with a little caution. If you do find that there is an inaccuracy in your results, please DO NOT correct it immediately. Corals NEVER like fast changes even when going from bad to good. I would double or triple test your alkalinity with other methods. Reagent test kits are pretty good in most cases in relation to alkalinity. I wouldn't even think about making any changes of anything until I verified the alkalinity result with at least two different reagent kits. This is one of those situations when reefing friends and your LFS can really be helpful.

In the end, I am available to help no matter what you find out. I would love to get the lot number, of your salt bucket, just because it always is a good idea for us to check our batch controls whenever there is a question. And a call or email will enable me to help you directly figure out what is going on.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[homer1475]

Thanks for your posts about this. Let me try to help.

First, let me explain that our office has been closed for the holidays and so I have not been getting my forum alerts as I usually do. That is why I have not responded to the questions put to me yet on this thread.

I also want to say, that you for sending the PM to me. That is always a better way to get to me rather than in an open thread that I might miss. For now, I will respond here for everyone else that is following along on this thread.

Oh, one last thing before I address your alkalinity questions directly...For everyone here on this forum...the BEST way to get me to step in an help if you are having an issue, is to either email me directly at [email protected] or to give me a call in the office at 413-367-0101. The reason I say this is NOT to avoid forums. As you have seen, I am quite active. It is because it is not easy, or even appropriate by R2R guidelines, for me to be doing lots of Tropic Marin product support here on the threads. So please try to contact me directly with specific product issues where I can help you best.

Now on to your specific alkalinity question... I am a big fan of Hanna Checkers. However, we have had a number of instances where they have pointed to low alkalinity, in freshly mixed salt water, that turned out to be not correct. I don't know why this happens. There could be a number of reasons, and I am not pointing a finger either to the Hanna checker directly or to you as the user. I'm just stating that I have seen this to be the case more than once. In those cases, samples of salt, directly from the customer, proved to be in the normal alkalinity range. More importantly, it turned out that the salinity of some of the systems being maintained, in those instances, were in the high range as a result of the checking over the past period of time.

I am not saying that this is the case on your instance. However, the last 4 times I have had this complaint come into the office, and was able to get samples of salt from the customer to check the alkalinity, this has been the case. So I want to just say... I would approach this situation with a little caution. If you do find that there is an inaccuracy in your results, please DO NOT correct it immediately. Corals NEVER like fast changes even when going from bad to good. I would double or triple test your alkalinity with other methods. Reagent test kits are pretty good in most cases in relation to alkalinity. I wouldn't even think about making any changes of anything until I verified the alkalinity result with at least two different reagent kits. This is one of those situations when reefing friends and your LFS can really be helpful.

In the end, I am available to help no matter what you find out. I would love to get the lot number, of your salt bucket, just because it always is a good idea for us to check our batch controls whenever there is a question. And a call or email will enable me to help you directly figure out what is going on.

I hope this is helpful.

CS at it's finest!

I would also question the hanna checker. We all have seen bad batches of reagents.

Question for the OP though, maybe I mised it, but are you only using the stated 25 tests, or trying to use all the regent in the bottle?

Only reason I asked, I have seen several threads where alkalinity numbers fall when trying to use the last bit of reagent. I have had much more consistent results when I started marking my bottles, and only useing the 25 test.

 

[Gaspipe]

Umm, just a note here that caught my eye when reading the thread...

The OP says when he uses the reagent, it never fills the syringe only the tip. While I do not use the tip, I wonder if he has air leaking in? I know the tip is full, but shouldn't the reagent be in the syringe some?

I will try this w/out the tip (enter your own perverted joke here) and compare results. I do not think there is a leak b/c:

1. I read somewhere to use the included tip as the reagent can and will stain the inside of the syringe and make it more difficult to read the numbers.
2. The tip is filled almost to the tip's top and I have constantly reached that level. I monitor this as I only placed a hole in the seal so it holds the syringe in the bottle when left unattended.
3. I'll also run some experiments where I will pull RODI water w/ the tip, shoot it into a cup and pull that liquid again and see if it drew 1.0ML

OP try removing the tip, pull up some reagent, push the plunger back down to 1ml, and thats where the reagent should be. Then test with that syringe.

I don't think that is it, but it's an easy attempt and a good idea. Thank you

Also have you shaken the bucket, rolled it around to mix the salt up? BRS actually did an investigates video, and stratification(elements settling) is a real thing.

I actually did do that when first purchased. I believe BRS on one of their more recent vids said w/ TM Pro that wasn't needed, but I did anyway.

 

[homer1475]

Just seemed odd that there wasn't some reagent in the syringe even with the tip.

Like I said though, I do not use the tip, and they give you a new syringe with every new reagent bottle, so staining shouldn't be an issue(least it never has for me in the few years I've been using the hanna).

 

[Gaspipe]

Question for the OP though, maybe I mised it, but are you only using the stated 25 tests, or trying to use all the regent in the bottle?

Only reason I asked, I have seen several threads where alkalinity numbers fall when trying to use the last bit of reagent. I have had much more consistent results when I started marking my bottles, and only useing the 25 test.

This I was NOT aware of!

I have tested 18 times so far. I also ordered a new reagent during the holidays/black friday. So I will be testing with the new reagent shortly.