Trouble cycling?

Alex.M.

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So i started my new salt water aquarium about 1 week ago. its a 40 gallon with roughly 40 gallons of live rocks, 60lbs of live sand and 3 mangroves. I started the cycling process using frozen brine shrimp, fish flakes and 1 large cocktail shrimp (which the guy behind the counter thought I was crazy). On the second day my ammonia shot up to the crazy level of .25 PPM and now it is at 0 PPM again. My nitrites have stayed 0 the two times i test them but my nitrates are at 20PPM!

I know this isn't a normal cycling period, but doesn't the appearance of nitrates mean that my tank is done cycling? If not, how did i screw this up? should i go ahead and do a water change? and does the appearance of brown algae mean that my tank is following the proper cycle?
 
So i started my new salt water aquarium about 1 week ago. its a 40 gallon with roughly 40 gallons of live rocks, 60lbs of live sand and 3 mangroves. I started the cycling process using frozen brine shrimp, fish flakes and 1 large cocktail shrimp (which the guy behind the counter thought I was crazy). On the second day my ammonia shot up to the crazy level of .25 PPM and now it is at 0 PPM again. My nitrites have stayed 0 the two times i test them but my nitrates are at 20PPM!

I know this isn't a normal cycling period, but doesn't the appearance of nitrates mean that my tank is done cycling? If not, how did i screw this up? should i go ahead and do a water change? and does the appearance of brown algae mean that my tank is following the proper cycle?
Since you used live rock and live sand (and it sounds like you have a lot) the bacteria that populated them likely jump started your cycle. If your tests are showing you have nitrates then your tank could be considered cycled but the most important thing to keep in mind with this hobby is that good things happen slow and bad things happen fast.

I see you're a fairly new member, welcome to the forum!
 
Since you used live rock and live sand (and it sounds like you have a lot) the bacteria that populated them likely jump started your cycle. If your tests are showing you have nitrates then your tank could be considered cycled but the most important thing to keep in mind with this hobby is that good things happen slow and bad things happen fast.

I see you're a fairly new member, welcome to the forum!

Thanks, I'm slightly new to the hobby. I've had freshwater for years and did an internship at my local zoo with the fish and rays. So I know how to maintain saltwater aquariums but had no idea how to start them. Did months of research about how to start an aquarium, but I never read anything about how in one week, I would be consider done with a cycle. I just thought I messed up royally lol! I wont add any fish to the tank for another 3 weeks, since I only got my cardinals in tonight and they need 3 weeks in a QT before I add them to anything.

But i was hoping to add some macro algae to my tank and get it established before I added my fish. Do you think this would be a good time to add, Gracilaria, mermaids wine glass and ulva along with a small clean up crew? (like 3 snails and 2 hermit crabs)

OH! P.S. this is a FOWLR aquarium no corals. That's a little advanced for me lol
 
So i started my new salt water aquarium about 1 week ago. its a 40 gallon with roughly 40 gallons of live rocks, 60lbs of live sand and 3 mangroves. I started the cycling process using frozen brine shrimp, fish flakes and 1 large cocktail shrimp (which the guy behind the counter thought I was crazy). On the second day my ammonia shot up to the crazy level of .25 PPM and now it is at 0 PPM again. My nitrites have stayed 0 the two times i test them but my nitrates are at 20PPM!

I know this isn't a normal cycling period, but doesn't the appearance of nitrates mean that my tank is done cycling? If not, how did i screw this up? should i go ahead and do a water change? and does the appearance of brown algae mean that my tank is following the proper cycle?

Welcome to R2R!! With no nitrite and nitrates your tank is good to go! A fowlr is good for a new reefer. As stated above bad things happen fast while good happen slow. This hobby is about patience. Good luck and happy reefing !
 
Thanks, I'm slightly new to the hobby. I've had freshwater for years and did an internship at my local zoo with the fish and rays. So I know how to maintain saltwater aquariums but had no idea how to start them. Did months of research about how to start an aquarium, but I never read anything about how in one week, I would be consider done with a cycle. I just thought I messed up royally lol! I wont add any fish to the tank for another 3 weeks, since I only got my cardinals in tonight and they need 3 weeks in a QT before I add them to anything.

But i was hoping to add some macro algae to my tank and get it established before I added my fish. Do you think this would be a good time to add, Gracilaria, mermaids wine glass and ulva along with a small clean up crew? (like 3 snails and 2 hermit crabs)

OH! P.S. this is a FOWLR aquarium no corals. That's a little advanced for me lol
A cuc wouldn't be a bad idea if you're seeing some algae growth on your rock. I'm also glad to see that you've decided to qt, here is some great info on the subject https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/thread-links-to-all-things-quarantine-fish-inverts.602917/
Since you're showing nitrates you may be able to grow macro algae but I'd be careful not to add too much because it can take a while to establish enough nutrients to grow it well
 
Welcome to R2R!! With no nitrite and nitrates your tank is good to go! A fowlr is good for a new reefer. As stated above bad things happen fast while good happen slow. This hobby is about patience. Good luck and happy reefing !

Thank you and im excited to have found this forum! I was super worried about how quickly the nitrates appeared (its only been 1 week since i started my cycle) since everyone is always saying "bad things happen fast while good happen slow". Also I really want a shirt that says that along with happy reefing. The saltwater aquarium community is a cult with their sayings! lol Maybe even one with big bold letters "DONT SKIP THE CYCLE!" or something like that lol
 
A cuc wouldn't be a bad idea if you're seeing some algae growth on your rock. I'm also glad to see that you've decided to qt, here is some great info on the subject https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/thread-links-to-all-things-quarantine-fish-inverts.602917/
Since you're showing nitrates you may be able to grow macro algae but I'd be careful not to add too much because it can take a while to establish enough nutrients to grow it well

What is a cuc? Also should i do a water change since I have Nitrates or should i let them grow and in a week introduce a small clean crew with 1 marco algae?
 
Cuc is just reef talk for clean up crew:). If you see algae growth on the rocks you can start adding them
Ok so another shirt idea is a t-shirt that says happy reefing on the small breast pocket and on the back is the 1000s of acronyms that the aquarium community uses. Its a cheat sheet for newbies and will help wife/ husbands understand their partners "fish talk". I swear I will make millions!

Thank you, for the help!
 
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-microbiology-of-reef-tank-cycling.214618/

the most up to date cycling procedure...

It’s a big read but it’s a work thread, we use live tank cycles to measure predictions we make in the microbiology discussion portions. We have the option to fully skip a cycle by using live rocks, they need zero further help to be ready, and interestingly we also have ways to skip the cycle when using all dry setups, extensive work is there to reveal the nature of reef tank cycling. it is now an option.

It’s important to know -why- being able to skip a cycle and have no harm is an important skill, it’s not just to break reefing rules. It’s because:

-Marine tank conventions don’t have thirty days to wait. They have four days total to display full reefs that are not dying, but stable. A standard cycle takes more than a weekend, so they need the science.

-a tank breaks. You need to move stuff to a new system immediately, no time to cycle. Is moving from a pet store to home any different than from tank to tank in the same home?

-moving houses, same. People want to skip the cycle at the new home and keep all their fish safe.

Many more reasons, but you can see the need and validity for the work with those examples.
 
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-microbiology-of-reef-tank-cycling.214618/

the most up to date cycling procedure...

It’s a big read but it’s a work thread, we use live tank cycles to measure predictions we make in the microbiology discussion portions. We have the option to fully skip a cycle by using live rocks, they need zero further help to be ready, and interestingly we also have ways to skip the cycle when using all dry setups, extensive work is there to reveal the nature of reef tank cycling. it is now an option.

It’s important to know -why- being able to skip a cycle and have no harm is an important skill, it’s not just to break reefing rules. It’s because:

-Marine tank conventions don’t have thirty days to wait. They have four days total to display full reefs that are not dying, but stable. A standard cycle takes more than a weekend, so they need the science.

-a tank breaks. You need to move stuff to a new system immediately, no time to cycle. Is moving from a pet store to home any different than from tank to tank in the same home?

-moving houses, same. People want to skip the cycle at the new home and keep all their fish safe.

Many more reasons, but you can see the need and validity for the work with those examples.


That was an amazing article/write up! Thank you for sharing.

Please correct me if I misunderstood your article, but basically since my tank used nothing but cured live rocks (group B), and live sand, my tank was already cycled. Thus when I added my fish food and shrimp, I was feeding the bacteria and worms on my live rock, not starting a tank cycle. However the algae bloom I see in my tank could have happened any time and is not an indicator on tank health?
 
that's wonderful summary. wonderful

Regarding the invasion you captioned that 1000% correct, the uglies phase, while definitely common for new tanks is again an option...its ok to simply force your live rocks to be free of invasive algae and cyano, even if tank arrangements don't line up that way. Manual work ensures success until artistic/intuit ability takes over, there's no need to be losing tanks to invasion at any stage, old or new.

Check out the nuisance algae and Tank Emergency forums here...that's a mix of both old and new tanks displaying the same span of invaders, proof that age isn't the causative.

Letting it happen is what causes the invasions, letting the invader exist to be photographed :) following what the masses do....

but the 1% who are tired of losing tanks, fed up with unacceptable loss, they will design accessible systems that can be taken apart, and cleaned outside of the restrictions of the tank water zone, for ultimate effectiveness. That doesn't mean you can't get lucky in allowing your system to be taken over and hopefully come back from the edge, it means you don't have to go there at all if the risk isn't worth it.

Because the bacteria are so tough, and take all manner of cleaning, air exposure and transfer etc, we're free to clean and rid the tank of any new invaders. Before we understood tank biology/microbiology much better in the hobby, everyone was purposefully wrecking their early reefs with opportunist invaders because they thought they had to....that the slightest cleaning move could trigger a dangerous recycle event. nowadays we know that a cycle can be avoided as long as the tank isn't packed in with half rotting waste in the bed and rocks
 
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that's wonderful summary. wonderful

Regarding the invasion you captioned that 1000% correct, the uglies phase, while definitely common for new tanks is again an option...its ok to simply force your live rocks to be free of invasive algae and cyano, even if tank arrangements don't line up that way. Manual work ensures success until artistic/intuit ability takes over, there's no need to be losing tanks to invasion at any stage, old or new.

Check out the nuisance algae and Tank Emergency forums here...that's a mix of both old and new tanks displaying the same span of invaders, proof that age isn't the causative.

Letting it happen is what causes the invasions, letting the invader exist to be photographed :) following what the masses do....

but the 1% who are tired of losing tanks, fed up with unacceptable loss, they will design accessible systems that can be taken apart, and cleaned outside of the restrictions of the tank water zone, for ultimate effectiveness. That doesn't mean you can't get lucky in allowing your system to be taken over and hopefully come back from the edge, it means you don't have to go there at all if the risk isn't worth it.

Because the bacteria are so tough, and take all manner of cleaning, air exposure and transfer etc, we're free to clean and rid the tank of any new invaders. Before we understood tank biology/microbiology much better in the hobby, everyone was purposefully wrecking their early reefs with opportunist invaders because they thought they had to....that the slightest cleaning move could trigger a dangerous recycle event. nowadays we know that a cycle can be avoided as long as the tank isn't packed in with half rotting waste in the bed and rocks

So to summarize (making sure I understand) algae, or the uglies phase, is completely avoidable with proper tank design and manual labor on the part of the tank owner. However since everyone is following the same ideologies, such as forced cycles or the belief that the bacteria on live rocks is extremely sensitive, these invaders continue to be a problem to most tank owners since most do not maintine their tanks to the fullest of their abilities, or just plain avoid the proper maintenance because they believe it will kill the beneficial bacteria.

Is this correct?
 
Agreed, consider this thread linked below to see if claimed patterns of human will stand out in the pages

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...ead-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445

-we had to make a thread that gave permission to act on/against/within a sandbed and to state what the benefits would be. In the year that thread started, any action against a sandbed was deemed dangerous, counterproductive, and a potential risk to the whole system. It takes 23 pages of work to SLOWLY convince people that the advice of the 90s needs updating. that you can access a bed to move it, transfer it, upgrade it, rip it out for cleaning if needed/all without loss. That the waste its storing at the bottom is the cause of nearly all cyano challenges in reefing, such that merely cleaning a system and not even using chemicals has collected the most cyano invasion cures of any thread I know of still running.

-look at the amount of wrecked or in-challenge tanks that present for work. They show up hesitant to act/clean/delve/de cloud and they leave confident to de cloud and clean if we're lucky, if we communicate correctly but mainly reading the works of others shows the new ways are safe. Momentum is building for cleaning, hand guiding, and NEVER letting an aquarium dictate to us what will occur but rather the other way around.

That link above is for sand rinsing, and all the invaders and associated actions that involve handling sand or setting up tanks involving sand. If you use sand in your tank, the dynamics shown there will certainly affect you one day, choose how that day will go down after seeing how other tanks presented at years 1, 2, 4 etc.


This link below is for using one of many methods to handle hair algae on your rocks. ***im not saying my ways are the best or only way*** Im saying they come with giant work thread documentation and always involve a repeating pattern of how we get these fixed up tanks without ever killing a single tank: we access fully not partially, with confidence, and we never put back together a cloudy system using sandbed filth or filth compacted inside the live rocks. By diligently handling and accounting for cloudy waste detritus, we can do any number of cleaning options to an aquarium and the tank doesn't die, or recycle, across multiple threads all with varying forms of tank surgery.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/reef2reef-pest-algae-challenge-thread-hydrogen-peroxide.187042/

--I resist dosing things to the water, measuring, waiting, and hoping. That is a valid science, but you'll see in my threads we don't even use parameter testing. I don't need to know what someones phosphate and nitrate read to make their tank work, I need only willing people not full of hesitation.

Large tanks aren't as accessible as our tanks are, so that water testing method really helps there and certain people are really good at balancing without having to put hands in the tank.

We are the polar opposite; if you have an accessible tank then stamp yourself lucky, that's the #1 variable required to never lose a reef tank to an invasion. We cause the uninvaded condition not by coaxing it slowly but by killing it off when it's detected. That it ever showed up in the first place is nature, these plants and animals belong on a reef-we just want unnatural ends and these threads show options on forcing compliance vs hoping.

We save money in these threads, some were on the way out.

There's no reason to lose any reef tank to an invasion...if we uncover that portion at least, then all time was spent well.

Though its another two hours read lol, if you put up with the headache of reading those posts you don't have to pay attention to my wording. Just look at how they present in the before pics. Its always the same...some type of invasion that they allowed to take over. they tried something through the water, some nutrient tuning, first and it still took on more mass. Physical intervention is the LAST thing considered, but Im telling you it should be the first.

Im reverse engineering all these invaded challenges back to day 1...be willing to access early, happily, eagerly, if you want to have a different pathway in reefing.

What options did they have on day 1 of the invasion, when the bryopsis was literally on one easily removable plug and we could have burnt it off with a blue jet flame lighter in two seconds?
Did they have to wait till total takeover? Human TRAITS of being invaded, has nothing to do with biology ~

in my opinion its gold info to merely see what years and years of presented invasions have in common, there's fifty different ways to uninvade a tank/ I can tell you are a good pattern hunter, that peroxide thread alone has links to over 500 tanks worked between us, nano reef and reefcentral.
 
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we sure moved past the cycling phase pretty fast ~~~~ time to prepare for total war against algae

normally, people aren't so passionate about defending against early algae but then again look at what Im used to seeing. want to head off your challenge well before.

Half the reason I didn't want to dose more ammonia to your already-ready system is bc that's algae fuel. Cycling is separate from algae challenges, and with your bacteria known ready it's time to at least factor something regarding invasion control


Nobody has to use such ruffian means if they don't want to


How did non ruffian means work out for them before letting us have some work time in the thread? We get chosen last place bc people figure they have nothing to lose if the system cycles out


But if they reverse that thought, and start resolved, trusting in cycle control, the whole outcome changes--- simply deny your tanks ability to become invaded early and it will comply.
 
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ps


we sure moved past the cycling phase pretty fast ~~~~ time to prepare for total war against algae :) and normally people aren't so passionate about it, but then again look at what Im used to seeing. I want to head off your challenge well before.

Half the reason I didn't want you dosing more ammonia to your already ready system, is bc that's algae fuel. This is exactly why in the thread I wrote that how people cycle determines how they'll battle algae and invasion soon after. Cycling is separate from early and middle tank age algae challenges.

I will be honest, I can not write as well as you, so please excuse any mistakes.

I understand where you are coming from with your ideas. As an environmental and geology student, some current practices in the aquarium community seem a little outdated. Bacteria are not week species and evolve quickly within minutes. SO even if you had a single bacterium that couldn't tolerate sand bed cleanings, and died. Within minutes thousands of resistant bacteria would have replaced it. Thus the idea that cleaning the sand beds are bad seemed a little off to me.

I mean, if we compare our tanks to the wild ocean. Sediments (sand) is constantly being moved and transported due to wave action. This action helps disperse bacteria, waste and other chemicals thus acting like natures own cleaning filter. Heavier materials and chemicals will settle on the sand beds and be absorbed by certain creatures (natures clean up crew) while lighter chemicals and materials/animals/bacteria will be transported else were and taken care of. Across the globe, nature has found a way to deal will all "invaders" with invertebrates and others. Everything gets eaten by something.

You can arguably say that our tanks are a tiny ecosystem thus we need to act like nature and provide proper filters and bacteria. In my belief, and how I plan to run my tank, my filter crew will far out number my fish species and in return my fish species will keep my filter crew in check. In nature invertebrates far out number vertebrate species and plant (& protist) species out number both vertebrates and invertebrates. Compared to wild ecosystems, a tank needs algae, it is a helpful part of life. Do I think you need to let it control the tank? No, but trying to completely eradicate it with peroxide seems improper when you have an entire invertebrates and protist species dedicated to correcting this issue. So my question back to you, is why not model tanks like actual ecosystems? Why do people not rely on CUC when they have proven for billions of years that they are capable of such job.

I have brown algae growing on my sand bed, instead of using peroxide or algae chemicals, I ordered 2 types of marco algae that "eats"the same nutrients as brown algae but in larger amounts ( thus my macro algae should starve the brown algae), while the snails, and crabs will eat the hair algae on my rocks and the dying brown algae on the sands. My mangroves will absorb the waste chemicals that the macro algae gives off (along with snails) and my fish (when out of QT) will control the MA and CUC by eating them. It wont be a quick fix, but it will be a healthy fix. Im actually writing a paper on this experiment for my college. I'm interested in your opinion
 
I fully support that plan and balance, well done and you write so well I’m clear on your premise for sure. The final ability of the accessible system is to be hand guided if some aspect of that above doesn’t pan out.

Agreed on the balances in nature, and a consumer for each presence on the reef. The balance of fish, the goal for the system to self regulate with grazer balances all is a great plan. If your system can reach self balance then the ideal has been found and if at any point some light invasions start to become seated, we know how to reset a particular rock, area or zone within the tank without harm, before it takes over.

You’ll notice in the work examples some of the most costly and well planned reefs still needing intervention...these small systems don’t mimic what the ocean does ideally at times, so all they ever needed past the good natural plan was a decent cheat option to not lose their investments.

*the ones who can arrange tanks naturally to not need such cheats think we’re crazy BUT they also cannot help the others restore balance using their methods or nobody would be using tank surgery to save reef life* so in the end, we are the ace in the back pocket to save the tank if needed.

I think with your planning and with those example tanks we bailed out using surgery, only if required vs losing an investment, you cannot lose as a reef tank owner. What a fun thread bouncing ideas how rare :)
B
 
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I fully support that plan and balance, well done and you write so well I’m clear on your premise for sure. The final ability of the accessible system is to be hand guided if some aspect of that above doesn’t pan out.

Agreed on the balances in nature, and a consumer for each presence on the reef. The balance of fish, the goal for the system to self regulate with grazer balances all is a great plan. If your system can reach self balance then the ideal has been found and if at any point some light invasions start to become seated, we know how to reset a particular rock, area or zone within the tank without harm, before it takes over.

You’ll notice in the work examples some of the most costly and well planned reefs still needing intervention...these small systems don’t mimic what the ocean does ideally at times, so all they ever needed past the good natural plan was a decent cheat option to not lose their investments.

*the ones who can arrange tanks naturally to not need such cheats think we’re crazy BUT they also cannot help the others restore balance using their methods or nobody would be using tank surgery to save reef life* so in the end, we are the ace in the back pocket to save the tank if needed.

I think with your planning and with those example tanks we bailed out using surgery, only if required vs losing an investment, you cannot lose as a reef tank owner. What a fun thread bouncing ideas how rare :)
B

I agree with you and your ideas as well! I think a lot of tank owners are wanting these luxury looking aqauriums, with heavy corals, large amounts of fish and flounder when it comes to maintenance and care of the tank. Stumps and filters are great and do help, but if you set up the tank correctly you will not need thousands of dollars of maintenance equipment.

My goal is to reach a self sustaining ecosystem within my tank, however I love that you have provided me a better solution for when something happened. (I know better than to think that nothing will ever happen). I have been reading about treatments using peroxide, however there is little to no actual scientific data collected on such treatments that I was a little worried on its merits.

I believe that both of us have similar beliefs in creating a self sustaining ecosystem within a tank and I would love to bounce more ideas and theories off of you.
 
I understand where you are coming from with your ideas. As an environmental and geology student, some current practices in the aquarium community seem a little outdated. Bacteria are not week species and evolve quickly within minutes. SO even if you had a single bacterium that couldn't tolerate sand bed cleanings, and died. Within minutes thousands of resistant bacteria would have replaced it. Thus the idea that cleaning the sand beds are bad seemed a little off to me.

I agree with you that your live rock and sand transferred from the store resulted in a tank that was 'already cycled' or nearly already cycled. I also agree that rinsing sand won't harm the 'good bacteria there'. But - one thing to understand is that e coli bacteria - for example doubles every 20 minutes. Nitrifying bacteria do not double in minutes - they double every 7-13 hours.
 
I agree with you that your live rock and sand transferred from the store resulted in a tank that was 'already cycled' or nearly already cycled. I also agree that rinsing sand won't harm the 'good bacteria there'. But - one thing to understand is that e coli bacteria - for example doubles every 20 minutes. Nitrifying bacteria do not double in minutes - they double every 7-13 hours.

I fully support that plan and balance, well done and you write so well I’m clear on your premise for sure. The final ability of the accessible system is to be hand guided if some aspect of that above doesn’t pan out.

Agreed on the balances in nature, and a consumer for each presence on the reef. The balance of fish, the goal for the system to self regulate with grazer balances all is a great plan. If your system can reach self balance then the ideal has been found and if at any point some light invasions start to become seated, we know how to reset a particular rock, area or zone within the tank without harm, before it takes over.

You’ll notice in the work examples some of the most costly and well planned reefs still needing intervention...these small systems don’t mimic what the ocean does ideally at times, so all they ever needed past the good natural plan was a decent cheat option to not lose their investments.

*the ones who can arrange tanks naturally to not need such cheats think we’re crazy BUT they also cannot help the others restore balance using their methods or nobody would be using tank surgery to save reef life* so in the end, we are the ace in the back pocket to save the tank if needed.

I think with your planning and with those example tanks we bailed out using surgery, only if required vs losing an investment, you cannot lose as a reef tank owner. What a fun thread bouncing ideas how rare :)
B

thank you to you both! I have been so worried about adding my cardinals to my tank just in case it wasn't actually cycled. but they are currently accumulating to my large tank now. Ill take a picture later tonight when the sand settles. I added like 15 more pounds of live rocks long so its a little cloudy!
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

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