Trying SPS, bleached white overnight / 2 days

[Reef of Fillory]

New
Current Lighting Schedule, based on a 4/20-4/30 acclimation

Acclimating from:

to

I've got a Jebao SW-2, Tunze 6040 and Apex Classic coming in the mail today to install on the tank.

My Lux meter came in yesterday, but I don't have any 9V batteries in the house, so those are supposed to arrive tomorrow.

 

[Reef of Fillory]

By the way, i'm not sure if i've pointed out my build thread on this thread yet:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/michigan-evo-12-13-5-gallons.366050/

 

[Reef of Fillory]

Got my powerheads hooked up last night, seems like too much flow on the anemone at least, any suggestions or opinions in powerhead placement? The jebao is definitely smaller than the 6040

 

[Reef of Fillory]

I have since returned the Tunze [too much flow, and pretty loud as well].

I now have two Jebao Sw4's connected to my Apex running programming similar to ReefofHex from his YouTube videos.


I have also added two T5 bulbs, one to either side of my Prime's

ALSO

I measured my LUX today:

Settings when measured -

Tank Setup -

The AI Primes are 5" from the water surface [4" from measurements]
The T5's are Geismann super Actinic bulbs [no idea how old they are - bought used] 5 1/2" from the water surface

The Non-HD Prime is centered 6" off the back wall, and the HD Prime is centered 13 1/2" off the back wall


Here are the LUX numbers, retrieved by HDE Digital Luxmeter LX1010B

The Prime HD sits at around 6" in to the front of the tank, and seems to be much more powerful than the Non-HD Prime. These are linked as parent/child in the AI software, but I may need to separate them and copy the profile over to the Non HD, but up the intensities to match the HD Prime?

Any help, suggestions or insight is greatly appreciated!

@mcarroll I appreciate all the feedback you've provided!!

 

[mcarroll]

You're on the right track already – just get those mismatched lights dialed in to the right color and lux levels – however that needs to happen. (No idea on the particulars unfortunately.)

 

[Reef of Fillory]

You're on the right track already – just get those mismatched lights dialed in to the right color and lux levels – however that needs to happen. (No idea on the particulars unfortunately.)

I've been contemplating switching to a 4 bulb T5 fixture, or a metal halide [if I can find one appropriately sized]. The wife is fine with the current light setup/situation, but she'd prefer something a little more clean looking.

Do you have any opinion as to whether the budget 4 bulb 24w T5 fixtures would be enough PAR for my Clam, Bubble tip, and SPS/acros in a 12" deep tank?

We are also willing to deal with the heat from MH as long as keeping the house at a reasonable temperature "might" allow the tank to stay cool enough to avoid a chiller [house temp @ 70-73?]
BRS talks about the Sun Blaze being used as a refugium light, but would 4 bulbs in this not be enough for a tank my size?
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/sun-blaze-t5-ho-lighting-fixture-sunlight-supply.html

or something like this, with replacement ATI bulbs
https://www.amazon.com/ft-F24T5-HO-Fluorescent-Spectralux-Included/dp/B002JLI7VC

 

[mcarroll]

The two primes ought to be able to rock this tank.

I don't think in Grand Rapids that you'll need a chiller if you go halide. I admit that it's hard to imagine a fixture giving you good coverage without using excessive watts and also filling the room with reef-colored light.

Aren't you on HVAC 98+% of the year (like us)? If so, that makes your air pretty dry, so fans on the tank work pretty well for intermittent cooling if needed.

At least IME, it's usually a better plan to adapt your tank to the higher baseline temperature vs fighting heat anyway. I just ran my tank at 83ºF (which my halides set as the maximum daytime temp) and I engaged heaters only after lights-out to keep the tank temp from falling more than 1ºF or so at night. Worked great until I switched to LED and I run the tank at about 79ºF now.

 

[Reef of Fillory]

The two primes ought to be able to rock this tank.

I don't think in Grand Rapids that you'll need a chiller if you go halide. I admit that it's hard to imagine a fixture giving you good coverage without using excessive watts and also filling the room with reef-colored light.

Aren't you on HVAC 98+% of the year (like us)? If so, that makes your air pretty dry, so fans on the tank work pretty well for intermittent cooling if needed.

At least IME, it's usually a better plan to adapt your tank to the higher baseline temperature vs fighting heat anyway. I just ran my tank at 83ºF (which my halides set as the maximum daytime temp) and I engaged heaters only after lights-out to keep the tank temp from falling more than 1ºF or so at night. Worked great until I switched to LED and I run the tank at about 79ºF now.

I like the thought of MH plug in and forget about it for 9 months, and the wife would prefer one "thing" over the tank, which has me thinking to switch over to a MH if I can find one used for a decent price.

Everyone talks about the "heat" from metal halide, but there's rarely mention of how much. Didn't think of adding a fan to the back, that could work well...

I don't really see any fixtures that are ~ 18" long by 10-12" wide, but i'd assume that even the smallest MH fixtures should be enough for a tank as small as mine?

I'm running my tank currently from 78.5-79.

In terms of running MH on my 13.5 gallons, would I want to go with 250W over 150? or would 150 even be plenty for SPS? I'd like the option to add the highest of light demanding corals to the tank down the road when things stabilize more and i'm able to sustain more acros.

 

[mcarroll]

Somehow I'm just arriving here.....water under the bridge, right?

70 watts would have been plenty, hypotheticlly. Just about perfect for a high-light tank, in fact. So even at 70 watts, still "a lot of light."

Not sure where you get a 70 watt halide for aquariums these days though.

150w is the next best choice – at least you'll have a ton of "room" to go for a high-kelvin bulb without needing to worry about PAR.

 

[Rakie]

- Go to the BRS videos on Youtube and look at the Prime HD. Use their settings (It's a mimic of the Radion AB+ setting).

- T5, MH -- Neither of these will solve your problems. A friend of mine is running 2 Prime HD's on her 40g JBJ and she has fine growth and color from SPS. (She uses the BRS settings as I've instructed her to do).

- As long as you have a second pump, most pumps will be fine. That was NOT too much flow. Corals love flow, can't get enough.

- Aside from changing the spectrums to the BRS settings -- Stop changing things. Corals are like trees, they take a LONG time to show any positive results. At the rate your changing things, you'll have no idea what you did that was helping the problem when things balance out. If you think you're reefing slow enough, SLOW DOWN.

- Try to change no more than 1 thing per month, unless the coral will die immediately without said change.

- I didn't see an alk update -- But I'd keep it closer to 8 -- 8 is easy, it's not a huge shock for new corals, and since you mentioned your nutrients bottoming out... Low Nutrients + High Alkalinity = Bad. It's significantly easier for corals to burn up in higher alkalinity, higher light, and lower nutrients. You've got the things on a razors edge.

- Kalk isn't stable enough in an ATO reservoir. I ran kalk my first year with my ATO, and switching up to a doser was the single biggest improvement in growth and color I've ever had. Switching to a Calcium Reactor would likely be just as big an upgrade over a doser.

SPS

Stability Promotes Success

 

[mcarroll]

Kalk isn't stable enough. I ran kalk my first year, and switching up to a doser was the single biggest improvement in growth and color I've ever had. Switching to a Calcium Reactor would likely be just as big an upgrade.

I suspect you ran kalk on your ATO? On a doser it should be just as stable as anything else, I think.

Also, unless you monitor your kalk with a conductivity (mS) meter like one of these...

HI98304
DiST® 4 Waterproof EC Tester (0.00-20.00 mS/cm)
$52.00



Primo4
EC (High Range) Tester with Cable Probe
$44.00

(Don't think they had the Primo4 when I was buying....nice! I have the DiST 4.....still pretty nice. )

...it's easy to have your solution lose strength on you, depending how your execute. Then it doesn't matter how you dose it.

You need to have some strategy for isolating your kalk solution from ambient air – a way that minimizes stirring, for the same reason...it tends to induce more precipitation.

@Randy Holmes-Farley kinda made the "still reservoir" method famous, but a reactor like the Tunze 5074 can also pull off similar isolation in a smaller space. Not all reactors are built the same, so keep your eyes open.

The Tunze, BTW, is not able to hold nearly as much kalk as a trashcan either, a la Randy's still reservoir. But even the still reservoir method could be scaled down to the space you have.

There are definitely ways to go wrong doing kalk.....and I do think two-part is a little more of a no-brainer.

2¢

 

[Rakie]

Yes @mcarroll -- I meant running Kalk in an ATO specifically** Didn't specify that though.

 

[Reef of Fillory]

I hooked the MH up tonight, and did some LUX testing after letting the Phoenix 14k run for around 30mins.

I also have here my LED setup LUX readings. From my brief reading regarding LUX measurements, I think that there is a difference in how a LUX meter reads LED vs light such as the MH, so i'm unsure of how to compare these numbers.

AI Primes [old lighting]:

New Metal Halide [150w Phoenix bulb]

I have the MH (150w) sitting at 11" off the waters surface currently. I feel that I may need to lower it significantly to match the LUX numbers of the AI primes when I took them off? Any suggestions @mcarroll ?

I do still have the 250w + T5 fixture in my apartment [haven't shipped it off for the return yet] so that's an option if more LUX is needed.

After one night, i'm really missing having blue/night viewing already!!

 

[mcarroll]

Any suggestions @mcarroll ?

On their own, those numbers look great. Nice even spread, overall! Should be plenty of light for most corals. On the low side of perfect. (Which is still perfect!)

If you're planning on clams, you'll want them in the middle where they'll get the most light, but should be about fine.

You can keep this on for up to 12 hours a day too since levels are nicely moderate. With the fixture much lower (i.e. more intense) you'll be wanting to consider a shorter photoperiod. (Good for bulb savings, but potentially cuts into viewing time.)



That said, it seems like at 12" you must be spilling light like mad over of all four sides of the tank.

I'm guessing from my old mini-reflectors, but you might want the light as close as 3-6". Can you play with it to see what height "fits" the tank best?

What peak lux number (focus on that middle zone's peak reading) do you get when all the light is going into the tank? I bet it's a lot more than 26,000 lux. B)

(You can just take some reference measurements at that distance under the lights in air, of course.)

After one night, i'm really missing having blue/night viewing already!!

If you have that much night-viewing time you should consider just shifting the main light schedule so the lights are on when you're around. Let the reef sleep (in the dark) when you sleep.

 

[Reef of Fillory]

On their own, those numbers look great. Nice even spread, overall! Should be plenty of light for most corals. On the low side of perfect. (Which is still perfect!)

If you're planning on clams, you'll want them in the middle where they'll get the most light, but should be about fine.

You can keep this on for up to 12 hours a day too since levels are nicely moderate. With the fixture much lower (i.e. more intense) you'll be wanting to consider a shorter photoperiod. (Good for bulb savings, but potentially cuts into viewing time.)



That said, it seems like at 12" you must be spilling light like mad over of all four sides of the tank.

I'm guessing from my old mini-reflectors, but you might want the light as close as 3-6". Can you play with it to see what height "fits" the tank best?

What peak lux number (focus on that middle zone's peak reading) do you get when all the light is going into the tank? I bet it's a lot more than 26,000 lux. B)

(You can just take some reference measurements at that distance under the lights in air, of course.)



If you have that much night-viewing time you should consider just shifting the main light schedule so the lights are on when you're around. Let the reef sleep (in the dark) when you sleep.

What i'm missing is the deep, low intensity blue colors that I had from the light "fading off" on the AI's - this might be fixed by plugging some blue LED strips in on a timer

The light is 12" off the water surface, and the top of my rockwork is something like 6" off of the water line, so 18" between the light and the base of the corals

Light spill actually isn't that bad - the pendant seems to direct almost all of the light down [the edges of the reflector point down instead of out]. Of course there is some light spill, but it wasn't noticeably an issue.

Wife opened up the 250w fixture to look at it, and she likes the look of that fixture better. What is the biggest concern if I were to use the 250w version? Heat dispersion?
Or am I looking at frying my corals [even after acclimation] with that powerful of a light?

If I can grow my SPS on top of the rock throughout the tank, + keep a few softies close to the rock, eventually shaded once the SPS grow in, i'd be fine with that.

I also have my clam (squamosa) in this position currently, and would like to get a second clam for the rockwork once everything settles in and i'm confident that the BTA will stay [so that I can rearrange the corals]

 

[mcarroll]

I'd still try the fixture closer. If you make it 6" you roughly double all those numbers.

Unless you can think of a reason not to, like I said already, I'd try the 250w light too since you have it. (Don't make a problem for the return, of course.)

 

[Reef of Fillory]

I'd still try the fixture closer. If you make it 6" you roughly double all those numbers.

Unless you can think of a reason not to, like I said already, I'd try the 250w light too since you have it. (Don't make a problem for the return, of course.)

Just got home from work and my first impression of the corals in the tank is that they absolutely love the MH lighting... All of my corals are opened up bigger and better than ever. My clam is also more opened up than I've ever seen it [even counting in the tank I bought it from.


I tested the 150w [phoenix 14k] at approximately 7" down from the bulb [didn't actually lower it, I hung yarn to 7" and gave it my best estimation].

I got

150w MH
7" under source
Rear of Tank
25k 25k 25k
33k 38k 38k
20k 21k 21k
18k 14k 17k
Front of Tank


Testing the 250w [stock 15k?] with the meter, this was much more difficult since it wasn't over the tank and I was guessing at distances compared to where the tank would be underneath the fixture:

150w MH
7" under source
Rear of Tank
70k 75k 68k
82k 100k 80k
68k 65k 67k


100k was the highest value I got, whether I went from 7" underneath the center, or directly underneath the bulb. My Lux meter's highest setting is 50,000 and it multiplies the value by x100 to get the LUX reading, so it's possible that my meter isn't accurate enough at these ranges?


I saw that Salty posted in another thread about conversions from LUX to PAR [roughly] suggesting that MH LUX readings should be divided by a constant of 50 for a 20k Radium. I'm running a 14k Phoenix though, so not sure if it's helpful... Regardless,

PAR converted using 50

150w Phoenix

500 500 500
660 760 760
420 420 420
350 280 350

At the water surface, this doesn't seem like enough for a SPS, clam and BTA dominant tank?

The tip of my tallest coral is an additional 4" under the water line, and the rock is 6" under the water line


the 250w stock bulb with 100k LUX in the center though would come out to 2,000 PAR at the water surface, mounted 7" above the water line. This seems like too much for a lot of coral [maybe not clams once acclimated though?]

The other LUX points from the 250w come out to around 1,200-1,400 par at the water surface across the tank without using the T5's, which would be used only for dusk/dawn, not full lighting periods

Can't tell you how much I appreciate the continued effort and assistance!

 

[mcarroll]

Way, way too much if you're getting 100,000K at the surface....I mean that's actual light conditions in a tidepool. Not that many corals will like it.

I could be wrong, but I'm not sure if you even have to light acclimate clams. Certainly once acclimated I would not expect a clam to have any trouble with the hot spot. But....I'd put that 250w fixture back in the mail now.

I tested the 150w [phoenix 14k] at approximately 7" down from the bulb [didn't actually lower it, I hung yarn to 7" and gave it my best estimation].

I got

150w MH
7" under source
Rear of Tank
25k 25k 25k
33k 38k 38k
20k 21k 21k
18k 14k 17k
Front of Tank

I like that a lot!! How did you like the look of it?? If you liked the look, I think you've got a winner here.

Pick up a little LED strip (or even less) for night viewing if you have to.

But remember what I suggested (I think) about shifting your whole light schedule to match your schedule. Don't settle for lots of night viewing....your corals would rather have it dark IMO....and you'd rather be watching them under your main lights! Make it so!

 

[Reef of Fillory]

Way, way too much if you're getting 100,000K at the surface....I mean that's actual light conditions in a tidepool. Not that many corals will like it.

I could be wrong, but I'm not sure if you even have to light acclimate clams. Certainly once acclimated I would not expect a clam to have any trouble with the hot spot. But....I'd put that 250w fixture back in the mail now.




I like that a lot!! How did you like the look of it?? If you liked the look, I think you've got a winner here.

Pick up a little LED strip (or even less) for night viewing if you have to.

But remember what I suggested (I think) about shifting your whole light schedule to match your schedule. Don't settle for lots of night viewing....your corals would rather have it dark IMO....and you'd rather be watching them under your main lights! Make it so!

I have pushed the lighting period from noon to 8pm so that we get a few hours of viewing after work.

I actually enjoy periods of low blue lighting, just not the entire time. I'm thinking that when I switch out the Phoenix I might give a 20k bulb a shot

 

[mcarroll]

Sounds good – make sure you post when you start thinking about particular models.