Trying to save fish from seriously neglected tank

[JJ Ligs]

I had to do this with my first tank. The salinity Of the water when I went to pick up the Tank and fish was 1.033. I had no choice because of the condition of things to start the tank over with the fish in it. First step was to acclimate the fish over the course of a few weeks to the proper salinty and I used prime and almost daily water changes to keep the ammonia down. It took a lot of babying and re training to get them to live and eat in good condition. Idk if you checked the salinity If their tank before you took it but that may be a factor In the new tank as well. Prime stinks it is not the best solution but it will quickly detoxify the ammonia level and keep it safe for the fish

 

[hmmmmm]

Just got home from work, not looking good.. the white spots came back with a vengeance. One of the fish even has them on his eyes, looks like he's blindly swimming into things.

Here is a video, first one has them but kind of hard to see in the video. Second one looks ok. Third one is really bad.


So I need copper again. I have 3 options:
1: reuse the same thing HW Odinex. Doesn't require me to shut off UV or skimmer.
2: Femsal, a reef safe variant, don't think I want that, if it's reef safe it's probably too light for what I'm having.
3: Oodinex, another copper based medicine for white spots. This requires me to shut of everything except mechanicall filtration and carbon.

1 problem, i used up the last Hanna reagent for copper yesterday. Bought a new packet today but that turns out to be the LR variant, and my meter is HR. Don't know how this will effect the reading but I assume it's not possible to swap them, why would they make 2 variants otherwise.

I'm leaning towards starting the HW Odinex again, as this seemed to remove the spots for a little while. I would have to do this without testing for copper first. I don't think it will be to bad as the Hanna gave a copper level of 0.5 after the first dosage. I keep reeding levels of 1.75 of 2.00 in the qt topic on this forum. That's 4 time the dosage specified by this manufacturer (HW is a respectable brand). So should I keep to the dosage or go hard and double the dosage to get to a copper level more in the range of what people are using on here?

When I use a couple filters on my phone it becomes more visible to the camera. It's even on the clowns now..;Facepalm

 

[hmmmmm]

Ammonia has shot up again as well, from 0.050 to 0.072 in less then 8 hours.. .doing a 50% waterchange to get it down. Seachem prime is coming tomorrow afternoon.

 

[laurichj]

The fish have a parasite, just because you can't see it doesn't make it not there. If it's ich or velvet: copper, hypo, CP or tank transfer are the only options. If it's brook, you'll need formalin. Nothing else will work. The spots will come and go, it's just part of the life cycle. If you use copper, DO NOT USE PRIME (or similar). It will make the copper toxic.

Hypo and prime is probably what I'd start with.

 

[hmmmmm]

The fish have a parasite, just because you can't see it doesn't make it not there. If it's ich or velvet: copper, hypo, CP or tank transfer are the only options. If it's brook, you'll need formalin. Nothing else will work. The spots will come and go, it's just part of the life cycle. If you use copper, DO NOT USE PRIME (or similar). It will make the copper toxic.

Hypo and prime is probably what I'd start with.

Prime is not available in this country, has some toxins that aren't allowed by the EU. Even metroplex en GC had to be imported from the US. CP same thing, asked 3 veterinarians last week and none of them can order it for me.

Have to make a decision because it looks way worse then it did yesterday, so it's a gut call. Back to the HW stuff, I'm upping the dosage, but will spread it out in 3 steps with a hour in between. In the morning I'll get the right reagent to check the copper levels.

 

[gabrieltackitt]

Prime is not available in this country, has some toxins that aren't allowed by the EU. Even metroplex en GC had to be imported from the US. CP same thing, asked 3 veterinarians last week and none of them can order it for me.

Have to make a decision because it looks way worse then it did yesterday, so it's a gut call. Back to the HW stuff, I'm upping the dosage, but will spread it out in 3 steps with a hour in between. In the morning I'll get the right reagent to check the copper levels.

WAIT!

What kind of copper is the HW stuff? Does it say on it. 1.75-2.00ppm is generally for chelates copper, the bottle saying 0.5 makes me think it is probably ionic copper more like Seachem Cupramine, where the proper dosage is 0.50 ppm. Let me do some research on it really quickly! 2ppm of ionic copper will very likely kill all of the remaining fish.

 

[hmmmmm]

WAIT!

What kind of copper is the HW stuff? Does it say on it. 1.75-2.00ppm is generally for chelates copper, the bottle saying 0.5 makes me think it is probably ionic copper more like Seachem Cupramine, where the proper dosage is 0.50 ppm. Let me do some research on it really quickly! 2ppm of ionic copper will very likely kill all of the remaining fish.

Roger that

 

[hmmmmm]

Bottle just states: contains copper. Not what kind. I'll have a look at the website.

 

[gabrieltackitt]

Since HW Odinex isn’t pure copper I would be very reluctant to say dose it any way besides what the manufacturer directions say. Is there any live rock in your tank currently? That will absorb the copper and prevent the treatment from working fully.

 

[gabrieltackitt]

Also be sure to keep the water surface moving a lot, the fish will appreciate the extra oxygen in the water during treatment.

 

[hmmmmm]

Here what I can find sofar

In the meantime I drained about 50%

Did find another casualty among the pvc unfortunately..

 

[hmmmmm]

Added new water and dosed according to the manufacturer. Ammonia dropped to 52, was hoping to see sub 40 with the 50% water change..

 

[gabrieltackitt]

If you have a LFS nearby that has Copper Power, Coppersafe or Cupramine I feel like that would be the best bet. I’m guessing this is either ich or velvet.

 

[gabrieltackitt]

Here is a very helpful link about copper treatment from @Humblefish give it a read and hopefully you can get this under control!

Copper treatment

Copper treatment What It Treats – Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) and Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium ocellatum). There is some anecdotal evidence that copper will suppress symptoms of Brooklynella hostilis and Uronema marinum; however it is unlikely to completely eradicate either. How...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[hmmmmm]

Since HW Odinex isn’t pure copper I would be very reluctant to say dose it any way besides what the manufacturer directions say. Is there any live rock in your tank currently? That will absorb the copper and prevent the treatment from working fully.

Also be sure to keep the water surface moving a lot, the fish will appreciate the extra oxygen in the water during treatment.

Yes I have power heads pointing at the sky in both tanks, and 3 airstones running. There is a little bit of live rubble in the tank which was added today to control ammonia, see page 1.

 

[hmmmmm]

If you have a LFS nearby that has Copper Power, Coppersafe or Cupramine I feel like that would be the best bet. I’m guessing this is either ich or velvet.

Checked today at multiple stores but those are all things that are available in the US but not overseas. I've imported copper power a few weeks ago but haven't received it yet. Wasn't planning on needing it anytime soon..

Local LFS told me 0.50 copper level is what they use. So I'm.pretty sure it's a different kind of copper.

 

[JumboShrimp]

Don’t be too hard on yourself— basically every act you’ve taken is heroic, and every fish than manages to pull through is a minor-miracle. Best wishes for continued success.

 

[hmmmmm]

Someone sent me a link to the humble fish emergency protocol:

1. Decrease the temperature to 72F for most tropical fish.

2. Decrease the salinity to 1.017 or lower

3. Increase the oxygen saturation to greater than 150% by the addition of pure O2.

4. Turn the lights off

5. Intramuscular injection of dexamethasone at 0.5 mg/kg

Though I have never used all of these techniques together, I have used them all and have been surprised to find that fish swimming the following morning. These are recommendations and should be adjusted to the situation.

____

Temp and salinity I can do, the rest is not possible, it's 24:00 here so co2 is unavailable and medication with difficult names seems to be impossible in this country (and I'm almost falling over from not sleeping the past 2 days)

But the HW medication is advising to up the temp to 28C. Can't do both I'm afraid. I'm guessing changing the salinity and temp at this moment might be too much atm, that's quite a big drop from 28C and 1.035..

(I've messaged HF for his thoughts on the situation, maybe he has the brilliant solution that will solve everything in 5 minutes so I can go to bed ;Dead)

 

[hmmmmm]

Don’t be too hard on yourself— basically every act you’ve taken is heroic, and every fish than manages to pull through is a minor-miracle. Best wishes for continued success.

Thanks mate! I'm not holding myself responsible, that's the previous owner with his decade of 'experience' ;Muted
But I don't care how much time it takes and buckets of salt i have to buy to do 100% WC every day, in the end I'll.be happy to know I've tried everything. Over there you would say: Let the cards fall where they may?

 

[hmmmmm]

Well... It's even worse then we thought.. ;Sorry

Turns out it's not ich, HF got back to me real quick and after taking a look at the videos and descriptions he thinks it's both brook AND velvet.

The medication I have right now is simply not sufficient, and I can't get what I need (copper power) here quickly. So other measures need to be taken.

I'm now initiating the so called salvage protocol. Shutting down uv and light, and lowering the sg to 1017 and the temp to 22C. Added fans to the tank to get the temp down, and put the ro systems straight in the tank voor dilution and cooling.

After that I need to sleep, as it's almost 2am here, then a round trip in the morning to multiple shops for h202, cupramine or ingredients for a DIY copper medicine, and the Hanna reagent. Luckily I could get a day of work.

I'll keep this updated as I go!